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Subject: Panzer Grenadier vs Lock 'n load: Band of heroes rss

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Jonas Jacobsson
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I am thinking of buying a tactical wargame that is not as hysterical advanced as ASL but still have a little more to it than the most basic games. So I have come to the conclusion that Panzer Grenadier and Lock 'n Load: Band of heroes are something in this line... Am I correct?

What are the pro's and con's of the two games compared to each other and to other games? Is there even other games that are better than theese two?
 
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Bill the Pill
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PG and LnL are actually different scales. If you are thinking simple squad level, think LnL and new Combat Commander (I like the latter better); slightly more complex is Advanced Tobruk System, then ASL.

For Platoon level, PG is essentially the PanzerBlitz of today, although a new version of PanzerBlitz is coming out from MMP someday. And there is an interesting Spanish game using platoon level that does the Spanish Civil War, and their second game will do France 1940.

Cheers,
Bill
 
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Trevor Murphy
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I've enjoyed the Advanced Tobruk System Basic Game 1a, for what it's worth. It's nowhere near as detailed as ASL (I mean that in a good way, in my case) but it retains a higher amount of control than Combat Commander (which puts that game in a different category, I'd say).
 
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Azog
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The only similarity between Panzer Grenadier and PanzerBlitz are the scale. The Panzer Grenadier series of games are based on a well-developed set of rules, which strive to achieve a high level of historical accuracy. The same certainly wasn't true of PanzerBlitz.

But, the other comments are very true; you need to decide which scale that you like.

For squal-level games, where each counter represents a squad, there are some good choices; Lock 'n Load is an excellent choice. The Advanced Tobruk System is a good system, as well. I personally don't care for Advanced Squad Leader (it's far too complex, and despite claims otherwise, it's not as grounded in modelling historical events as either ATS or Panzer Grenadier.

For platoon-level games, where each counter represents a platoon or battery, the best choice I could make would be anything from the Panzer Grenadier series. They have a broad range of games, all which use the same "series rules", and all of the games are compatible with one another. They come with literally hundreds of scenarios. The artwork is some of the best in the business. And they are noted for their historical accuracy.
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Nicolas Eskubi
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Bilbao
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Hi Jonas,

I read whr you are looking for and think A las Barricadas! can be a good game for you, if want can download a demo of the game or take a look to the VASSAL module, here are some links of our game: www.warstormseries.es

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/26250

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@207.ou5hcpivC9w.3733447@...

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@207.ou5hcpivC9w.3733459@...

If have any questionlet me know.

Best
Niko
 
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Bill the Pill
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Azog wrote:
The Panzer Grenadier series of games are based on a well-developed set of rules, which strive to achieve a high level of historical accuracy. . . . And they are noted for their historical accuracy.

I own a bunch of Panzer Grenadier, but as a historian I wouldn't ascribe the same level of historical accuracy that Azog proclaims, nor would I say the rules were well-developed until the current 3rd ed., but different strokes for different folks. PG can be a fun game. I have to admit that I am really looking forward to the "Classic Wargame" PG proposal pitting Japan vs. the Soviet Union in 1939; I think it is called "Asian Desert."
 
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Mark Buetow
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I've got LnL and just got and played Combat Commander. CC is by far the easier to play and really gives a chaotic feel. LnL is a very good game also, but I think as far as ease of play and rules, CC is easier and quicker to get into (at least for my slow brain).

 
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Hannes Riener
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jonjac wrote:
Panzer Grenadier and Lock 'n Load: Band of heroes

I suggest - go to both sites, i.e.
http://www.locknloadgame.com
and
http://www.avalanchepress.com

Download the demos what are available for both systems and try it out by your own.

More fun and even more valueable then any "I prefer"-advise.
 
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Jonas Jacobsson
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Hannes wrote:
I suggest - go to both sites, i.e.
http://www.locknloadgame.com
and
http://www.avalanchepress.com

Download the demos what are available for both systems and try it out by your own.

More fun and even more valueable then any "I prefer"-advise.


Oh, I completely missed that there was a free demo of Lock 'n Load: BoH.

Will have a look at them. Thanks!
 
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Aaron Silverman
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For what it's worth, I find Panzer Grenadier to be a bit easier to get into than Lock 'n' Load (not a comment on the fun value of LNL, as I have spent very little time with it). I just had a big argument with Azog on Consimworld about how "educational" PG is, but consider the fact that despite our differences, we both like the game.

You should also look into the ASL Starter Kit, which is of similar complexity to the others. ASLSK1, with infantry and a couple of support weapons only, is similar in complexity to Panzer Grenadier, while ASLSK2 adds larger guns and ups the detail a notch. ASLSK3, which is coming soon, adds vehicles and probably a significant jump in detail, albeit one that'll be easy to make after trying the first two kits.

MMP is planning on supporting the Starter Kits to some extent with scenario packs and historical modules, so it's not like you'd hit a brick wall after the three kits if you didn't want to go on to the full game.

Personally, I find the ASLSK system to be a bit more flavorful than PG, but that's partially due to the fact that it's somewhat more complex. On the other hand, PG already has a very wide variety of available sets (including North Africa and Guadalcanal), while the ASLSK is limited to a couple dozen ETO scenarios at this point.

If you end up buying one of the older Panzer Grenadier modules, be sure to download and use the new 3rd edition rules and charts. The old editions are, shall we say, not so snazzy. The 3rd edition rulebook is very clean (and is entirely compatible with the older modules).
 
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Azog
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DrFlanagan wrote:
Azog wrote:
The Panzer Grenadier series of games are based on a well-developed set of rules, which strive to achieve a high level of historical accuracy. . . . And they are noted for their historical accuracy.

I own a bunch of Panzer Grenadier, but as a historian I wouldn't ascribe the same level of historical accuracy that Azog proclaims, nor would I say the rules were well-developed until the current 3rd ed., but different strokes for different folks. PG can be a fun game. I have to admit that I am really looking forward to the "Classic Wargame" PG proposal pitting Japan vs. the Soviet Union in 1939; I think it is called "Asian Desert."


I would be interested to hear where you think that the Panzer Grenadier games -are not- historically accurate. I am a historian as well, and I haven't found anything which I have taken particular exception with.

 
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Bill the Pill
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I think Panzer Grenadier is a fine game. But can an impulse-system with little fog of war ever really be characterized as "historically accurate." I also think that leaders play an ahistorical, too powerful, role.

Again different strokes... It just makes me uncomfortable to have a game with as many abstractions, including geomorphic maps rarely of a real location, considered "historically accurate." Maybe "more historically accurate" than PanzerBlitz would be an okay way of putting it. I like the system in Panzer Commander even better than PG. But again, I wouldn't call it "historically accurate."

I'm probably just spliting hairs here, but you asked.
 
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