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Subject: Some thoughts from a potential backer rss

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Mike
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OK, so this game looks like something I would really enjoy. I love the campy horror theme and who doesn't love chucking dice?

It seems like the current kickstarter campaign is stalling a bit and as someone who is on the fence I'd like to share my concerns.


First - The name is just terribly clunky. Sure it's just a name, but from a marketing and branding perspective it's not exactly a home run. Something like Frankenstein's Dice might not be as clever...it also doesn't hurt the game. Not a deal breaker at all though.

Second - The artwork for this game...is just not acceptable. I love how the art in the game is mirrored on the awesome etched dice. However, it's not a pretty looking game. If this game had artwork similar to something like Chthulu Realms...well I'd already be a backer. I understand the artwork was kept the way it is because you're mashing the different monsters together. It just doesn't look appealing. My gut is that this is the main reason it's not doing better.

I hate to post something like this...I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. I'm just being honest as to why I'm not currently backing the game. It looks like it still might get funded (and I hope it does)...but hopefully the publisher and designers can understand my concerns.
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BonesJackson wrote:
First - The name is just terribly clunky. Sure it's just a name, but from a marketing and branding perspective it's not exactly a home run. Something like Frankenstein's Dice might not be as clever...it also doesn't hurt the game. Not a deal breaker at all though.

Frankendice?
Well, I think the name's fine. I mean Frankenstein is very specific: the mad scientist who created the monster from the movies. The game has several mad scientists duking it out with all sorts of monsters.

BonesJackson wrote:
Second - The artwork for this game...is just not acceptable. I love how the art in the game is mirrored on the awesome etched dice. However, it's not a pretty looking game. If this game had artwork similar to something like Chthulu Realms...well I'd already be a backer. I understand the artwork was kept the way it is because you're mashing the different monsters together. It just doesn't look appealing. My gut is that this is the main reason it's not doing better.

I hate to post something like this...I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. I'm just being honest as to why I'm not currently backing the game. It looks like it still might get funded (and I hope it does)...but hopefully the publisher and designers can understand my concerns.


Are you kidding me? I LOVE the art! I mean LOOK:



Very Scooby Doo! Exactly what this needs to be. Cartoony! Like you said, the dice reflect this. Anyway, it's a matter of taste in the end.

Thanks for giving your opinion though, I actually hope more people will chip in and say what they think might get this project rolling faster again. I want those Stretch Goals lol
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Arthur Petersen
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BonesJackson wrote:
OK, so this game looks like something I would really enjoy. I love the campy horror theme and who doesn't love chucking dice?

It seems like the current kickstarter campaign is stalling a bit and as someone who is on the fence I'd like to share my concerns.


First - The name is just terribly clunky. Sure it's just a name, but from a marketing and branding perspective it's not exactly a home run. Something like Frankenstein's Dice might not be as clever...it also doesn't hurt the game. Not a deal breaker at all though.

Second - The artwork for this game...is just not acceptable. I love how the art in the game is mirrored on the awesome etched dice. However, it's not a pretty looking game. If this game had artwork similar to something like Chthulu Realms...well I'd already be a backer. I understand the artwork was kept the way it is because you're mashing the different monsters together. It just doesn't look appealing. My gut is that this is the main reason it's not doing better.

I hate to post something like this...I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. I'm just being honest as to why I'm not currently backing the game. It looks like it still might get funded (and I hope it does)...but hopefully the publisher and designers can understand my concerns.


Yeah, several people have mentioned the art as not to their liking. I know that the art director really wanted a "Scooby Do" style - when you play the game it really seems to fit the art perfectly. It's family fun.
THe artist is super talented, and some of the art on the KS is NOT finalilzed. Here is the gallery of the actual artist, Dan Hughes:
http://artmageillustration.com/

As far as the name, I feel that it is perfect - it gets across two crucial things without needing a subtitle:
A) it's a dice game
B) it's about a mad scientist and/or a monster made from body parts

I think that's pretty succinct good for a title! Also, it's hardly more difficult to say then Frankenstein.
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Yeah, I kind of agree. I really don't like the art. And it's usually a big part in my decision to purchase/buy a game. I don't like cartoony art on games.

I'm coming to terms with the name. The more I think about it, the more I realize it wasn't the comedic aspect of the title, as much as the fact that I can't help reading it as "Dice-enstein", so it evokes more Einstein than Shelley, for me. It might be because I am not a native English speaker, though.

I still (finally) backed the game, for two reasons:
1. The game seems like fun.
2. I want to support Petersen Games.

It might be the only game in my collection that I play despite its art, but there you go.
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Mike
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The name is hardly a deal breaker. I just think it's a bit clunky.

For me it's more of an issue with the quality of the artwork...not the style. I'm 100% fine with it being cartoony. It's just that all of the monsters are drawn as if they're being viewed directly from the side and it gives off a "flash based fighting game" vibe.

I like the artwork on the box art. So it's not that I'm opposed to the current style. Something about it just feels off. You mention that some of it is not finished and that might be all there is to it. Not sure. Maybe more dynamic poses on the monster sheets or something.

Thanks for the comments. I've still got my eye on the game because it seems REALLY fun! In the end that is all that matters.


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BonesJackson wrote:
The name is hardly a deal breaker. I just think it's a bit clunky.

For me it's more of an issue with the quality of the artwork...not the style. I'm 100% fine with it being cartoony. It's just that all of the monsters are drawn as if they're being viewed directly from the side and it gives off a "flash based fighting game" vibe.

I like the artwork on the box art. So it's not that I'm opposed to the current style. Something about it just feels off. You mention that some of it is not finished and that might be all there is to it. Not sure. Maybe more dynamic poses on the monster sheets or something.

Thanks for the comments. I've still got my eye on the game because it seems REALLY fun! In the end that is all that matters.




Ah yes, you need to play the game to see the dice matching up. All the images of all the body parts are a profile looking to the right. They have to be in order for the dice to match up and make sense. Even so, it's only an abstraction of them matching up (the hands and feet are too big, etc.). But it would really look dumb if they all looked in random directions.
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Mike
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Yeah, I sort of figured that was why they were like that. It makes sense. Thanks again for the response and good luck!
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BonesJackson wrote:
It's just that all of the monsters are drawn as if they're being viewed directly from the side and it gives off a "flash based fighting game" vibe.

Maybe more dynamic poses on the monster sheets or something.


Yeah, not the dice, those are great, but some extra art on the monster stats sheets from a different angle perhaps?

I think we might also need a few KS exclusive dice honestly. Not that I like exclusive items, but they seem to work wonders for CMoN...

Non-game-changing exclusives are never an issue though, if it's just a cosmetic thing, extra bling as it were, so perhaps think about that?
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Chris Fernandez
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As far as the name, I was actually completely opposed to it when Tom suggested it to me. Over time I have grown to love it and can't think of it by any other name even though some of my close friends in my normal game group like to purposefully mess it up or change it. Also there is a party game called Frankendice out for some time now.

Its a shame you don't like the art, I think the style fits the theme gloriously. I'm not sure how complete the art is as far as polished and publish ready.

Thank you for taking the time to voice your comments on the game, I hope to see you on the KS comments as a backer!

-Chris
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BonesJackson wrote:
I've still got my eye on the game because it seems REALLY fun! In the end that is all that matters.

I agree, and I truly believe it will be great fun! Heck, I know I'll have fun just playing with the dice and building monsters with my son (2.5 y/o). He'll be 3 once we get this.
Certainly taking it to my gaming nights!
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Mike
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Also, I wanted to note that I understand that the art on the dice all needs to face the same way. I am in no way complaining about the dice. I think the etched dice and the simple artwork on them looks great!

Let's take a look at something from the kickstarter page:




See where the unicorn is? On the right hand side there is a card which explains all the dice, special ability and then a small token as well. Is this style/layout finalized? It doesn't look bad...but it does look kind of plain. Is there any chance of the layout of those changing?

I've been watching the kickstarter for a couple of days and it seems to have hit a wall. I was just trying to figure out what the cause might be. So I really do appreciate everyone taking time to comment on the thread.

Edit - Upon looking closer it appears that they are unfinished. The werewolf one looks like it has some extra background details etc... Same for the little tokens. It might be helpful to put up a big ol sticker that points out the artwork is not yet finalized! Might help some people on the fence
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BonesJackson wrote:

See where the unicorn is? On the right hand side there is a card which explains all the dice, special ability and then a small token as well. Is this style/layout finalized? It doesn't look bad...but it does look kind of plain. Is there any chance of the layout of those changing?

Edit - Upon looking closer it appears that they are unfinished. The werewolf one looks like it has some extra background details etc... Same for the little tokens. It might be helpful to put up a big ol sticker that points out the artwork is not yet finalized! Might help some people on the fence

I'd guess that those are placeholders. I'd imagine the final cards to have full coloured art with a background and each monster in a fearsome pose.
The round token will probably have the colour of the dice and just the line drawing of the etched head, to make them easy to recognize when placing the dice in the graveyard at the start.
And the monster stats cards will still have the 6 sides of the dice showing, so as I said I'd imagine the art to be very vibrant. I really hope so
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Mike
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Yep...I'm thinking they're just work in progress type stuff. It would probably be a good idea to clearly mark that...so you don't have fools like me making a mistake!

Also, I hope I didn't bum anyone out or discourage the designers. That was never my intention with this thread. The only reason I even voiced my concerns is because this is a game with theme and mechanics I can really get behind. And I want it to be as awesome as possible. I truly hope the game becomes a smashing success!
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James
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BonesJackson wrote:
Yep...I'm thinking they're just work in progress type stuff. It would probably be a good idea to clearly mark that...so you don't have fools like me making a mistake!

Also, I hope I didn't bum anyone out or discourage the designers. That was never my intention with this thread. The only reason I even voiced my concerns is because this is a game with theme and mechanics I can really get behind. And I want it to be as awesome as possible. I truly hope the game becomes a smashing success!

Hey, Mike. As a backer I think your comments are very constructive and I'm sure they're appreciated.

Having played the prototype, for what it's worth, I just wanted to pass on that I feel your impressions about the game overall are dead-on. The theme and the gameplay really interplay in a super fun way; it's the first time that a drafting game has just made sense to me in this fashion, that I couldn't imagine the parts of the game combined in any other way. It was good, silly fun. I hope you ultimately join in!
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Max Maloney
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I like the art.

I like the name.

I am skeptical about the dice. Have we seen production dice? I didn't see them on the main page of the Kickstarter. I am concerned that the icons are so small and so close to the edge that they could easily come out not looking nearly as good as the mock-ups.
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Chris Fernandez
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@ Max - The first prototype die is on the main kickstarter page in the dice comparison chart. They are 18MM and have come out quite clear.



Normally there will be numbers under any symbol that this side gives bonuses to, however this particular die and side get no stats (beyond the 1 attack from the werewolf's power).

-Chris
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I like the name, and while the concept was weird when I first heard about it back in April, it's really grown on me as I've thought about it'll all play out mechanically, and it's now something I'm really looking forward to

That said, I don't think the art is very good. Someone else mentioned a Flash Game, and that's exactly what I think every time I see it. The artist is clearly very talented, and a lot of keypoints of the style make sense, but the execution looks kinda sloppy and amateurish.

If you want it to look like Scooby Doo, there's ways to do that without compromising on the quality of the art. As an example, compare The Venture Bros to Johnny Quest. The former is extremely indicative of the latter, and yet manages to look very modern.

It's hard for me to give more concrete and constructive criticism than that, as I'm not very aesthetically inclined :/
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Max Maloney
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I like the art because it matches the dice. You can't really have the art on the dice be more complicated or realistic, and it's nice having the art be a colorful lively representation of those die faces.
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I find it odd that Kickstarter only allows backers to comment since there is no venue (other than perhaps BGG) for potential backers to discuss. I'll add my two cents to why I have yet to back Dicenstein (and why I probably won't back):

1) The price is too high. I don't mean that in terms of value, etc. I mean that without any significant kickstarter-only material, the retail cost will be lower than what a backer will pay.

2) While a lot has been discussed in this thread about the artwork, I have no concerns about that. My concern is the dice, which is the main focus of this game. They don't look very good. There is way too much being shoved onto each die face. In my view, just the main graphic should be on each die face and the stats should be read off of the player boards.
 
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With $15 off MSRP, a free KS-exclusive monster, and the potential for more free SGs that will be $8 at retail, I'm not sure I understand the price issue. Though I suppose that everyone has there own threshold.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the faces of the die though. The stats are currently only on the dice. Are you proposing a giant reference sheet that shows all 6 sides of all of the dice? For those that have two head sides with different stats, are you proposing that they have different artwork so that you know what to compare it to on the reference sheet? That seems like a lot of work. I think I'd prefer it on the dice as they are now.
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donnbobhardy wrote:
With $15 off MSRP, a free KS-exclusive monster, and the potential for more free SGs that will be $8 at retail, I'm not sure I understand the price issue. Though I suppose that everyone has there own threshold.


Does anyone really see "$15 off MSRP!!!" and blindly believes it? First off, the cheapest shipping is $10-15 as per the campaign so there goes your cost savings. And both online and FLGS pricing of board games comes in well below MSRP. It is not a threshold... if I want to buy this game at retail, it will be less expensive.

You mention the "KS-exclusive monster"... that is a pretty low amount of "exclusive" stuff to get. The stretch goals are likely not going to be hit based on current funding levels (or very few will). This certainly does not justify paying more than retail 10 months in advance.

For Kickstarter game campaigns to work successfully, they need to present either significant exclusive material or significant savings off of retail to make sense. Kickstarter is saturated with board games and I was just pointing out why I believe this campaign is not succeeding.
 
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sdetsky wrote:

I find it odd that Kickstarter only allows backers to comment since there is no venue (other than perhaps BGG) for potential backers to discuss. I'll add my two cents to why I have yet to back Dicenstein (and why I probably won't back):

1) The price is too high. I don't mean that in terms of value, etc. I mean that without any significant kickstarter-only material, the retail cost will be lower than what a backer will pay.

2) While a lot has been discussed in this thread about the artwork, I have no concerns about that. My concern is the dice, which is the main focus of this game. They don't look very good. There is way too much being shoved onto each die face. In my view, just the main graphic should be on each die face and the stats should be read off of the player boards.

It's a shame you feel that way. I think the game has great value.
Remember, you're getting not just a board, score tracker tile, plenty of cards, 4 giant meeples, but also 126 custom engraved dice. You can't beat that. The replay value from that amount of dice alone should justify the price, let alone the production value. Every game there will be different monsters in play, in different locations, and your secret monster army will be different. Your monsters will be different every time, and so must your tactics too.
And these are 18mm dice, so the dice faces are big enough to have all that information on them. From what I've seen, these look very clear to me.
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sdetsky wrote:
The stretch goals are likely not going to be hit based on current funding levels (or very few will). This certainly does not justify paying more than retail 10 months in advance.


While I do respect your concerns, you do realize this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you? If potential backers don't back because stretch goals can't be reached, then stretch goals won't be reached.
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Sjeng wrote:
sdetsky wrote:


1) The price is too high. I don't mean that in terms of value, etc. I mean that without any significant kickstarter-only material, the retail cost will be lower than what a backer will pay.

It's a shame you feel that way. I think the game has great value.
Remember, you're getting not just a board, score tracker tile, plenty of cards, 4 giant meeples, but also 126 custom engraved dice. You can't beat that. The replay value from that amount of dice alone should justify the price, let alone the production value. Every game there will be different monsters in play, in different locations, and your secret monster army will be different. Your monsters will be different every time, and so must your tactics too.
And these are 18mm dice, so the dice faces are big enough to have all that information on them. From what I've seen, these look very clear to me.


I assume you didn't read my comment. I am not commenting on value. I am comparing apples to apples. Backing this means paying $50 + $10-15 in shipping and then waiting 10 months. Either online or at your FLGS, the typical pricing of games is between 15-25% off of MSRP, which would be between $48-$55.

Therefore:

Backer: pay $60-65, wait 10 months, get potential KS-only material
Non-backer: pay $48-55 and have game in hand, lose out on KS-only material

That is why KS-only material (either as part of campaign or as stretch goals) is so important. Right now, you get one more monster. Is that worth $10-12 and paying 10 months in advance?

I was just listing two issues with the campaign and why potentially it is not being funded very well. I like the idea of this game and I am trying to make suggestions (based on just one person's opinion) on how the creator could have made a better campaign.

For the comments on dice:
1) Maybe I'm in the minority, but these dice are not clear to me. Look at the pre-production Mantis dice and tell me by reviewing quickly what is an arm, a body or a leg. The attributes are on top, to the side, at the bottom. The attribute symbols other than the shovel are almost indistinguishable even in the photos which are blow up about 3-5 times.
2) "126 custom engraved dice. You can't beat that." How about 111 custom dice (albeit smaller) with player screens, player mats, dice cups, almost 100 tiles, etc. in Roll for the Galaxy for $40? I'm sure others can think of other examples of comparatively priced dice games.
 
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sdetsky wrote:
Sjeng wrote:
sdetsky wrote:


1) The price is too high. I don't mean that in terms of value, etc. I mean that without any significant kickstarter-only material, the retail cost will be lower than what a backer will pay.

It's a shame you feel that way. I think the game has great value.
Remember, you're getting not just a board, score tracker tile, plenty of cards, 4 giant meeples, but also 126 custom engraved dice. You can't beat that. The replay value from that amount of dice alone should justify the price, let alone the production value. Every game there will be different monsters in play, in different locations, and your secret monster army will be different. Your monsters will be different every time, and so must your tactics too.
And these are 18mm dice, so the dice faces are big enough to have all that information on them. From what I've seen, these look very clear to me.


I assume you didn't read my comment. I am not commenting on value. I am comparing apples to apples. Backing this means paying $50 + $10-15 in shipping and then waiting 10 months. Either online or at your FLGS, the typical pricing of games is between 15-25% off of MSRP, which would be between $48-$55.

Therefore:

Backer: pay $60-65, wait 10 months, get potential KS-only material
Non-backer: pay $48-55 and have game in hand, lose out on KS-only material

That is why KS-only material (either as part of campaign or as stretch goals) is so important. Right now, you get one more monster. Is that worth $10-12 and paying 10 months in advance?

I was just listing two issues with the campaign and why potentially it is not being funded very well. I like the idea of this game and I am trying to make suggestions (based on just one person's opinion) on how the creator could have made a better campaign.

For the comments on dice:
1) Maybe I'm in the minority, but these dice are not clear to me. Look at the pre-production Mantis dice and tell me by reviewing quickly what is an arm, a body or a leg. The attributes are on top, to the side, at the bottom. The attribute symbols other than the shovel are almost indistinguishable even in the photos which are blow up about 3-5 times.
2) "126 custom engraved dice. You can't beat that." How about 111 custom dice (albeit smaller) with player screens, player mats, dice cups, almost 100 tiles, etc. in Roll for the Galaxy for $40? I'm sure others can think of other examples of comparatively priced dice games.

The dice are not engraved in roll for the galaxy, so there will be a difference in size and quality.
The dice in the photos are prototypes they are also laser treated instead of engraved. Engraving will give a cleaner sharper image. The stat location lets you know what part it is. Stats on the left are body, right arm, top head and bottom feet. Also the stats are always in the same order as far as the symbols go, it is very easy to read them after playing for a short time.
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