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Subject: Disciple + Hireling rss

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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Like Throne Room and cards alike, Disciple is set aside with Hireling and doubles its effect every turn. My question is: can I ever decide to exchange the Disciple for a Teacher later or am I stuck with him doubling Hireling for the rest of the game? (Based on what the English card says, I guess the answer is no. I wasn't so sure after I read the German one.)
 
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Ponton wrote:
Like Throne Room and cards alike, Disciple is set aside with Hireling and doubles its effect every turn. My question is: can I ever decide to exchange the Disciple for a Teacher later or am I stuck with him doubling Hireling for the rest of the game? (Based on what the English card says, I guess the answer is no. I wasn't so sure after I read the German one.)

The English rules appear to be quite clear on this one ...

Adventures rules (on Hireling) wrote:
If you use Disciple (or a similar card, like Throne Room) to play Hireling twice, you will draw two extra cards each turn, and Disciple will also stay in play for the rest of the game.

Since the Disciple is never discarded from play, it never gets upgraded.
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Thanks.
 
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George I.
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Let's expand it a bit:

1) Procession and Hireling:
- Procession stays in play for the rest of the game (affecting the cost of Peddler).
- Hireling is trashed and you gain a $7 card.
- At the start of each turn: +2 cards.

2) Royal Carriage and Hireling:
- Since Royal carriage was called to play again Hireling, it also stays in play for the rest of the game (affecting the cost of Peddler).

Are these correct?
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Donald X.
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Picon wrote:
Let's expand it a bit:

1) Procession and Hireling:
- Procession stays in play for the rest of the game (affecting the cost of Peddler).
- Hireling is trashed and you gain a $7 card.
- At the start of each turn: +2 cards.

2) Royal Carriage and Hireling:
- Since Royal carriage was called to play again Hireling, it also stays in play for the rest of the game (affecting the cost of Peddler).

Are these correct?

Yes.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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In case 1), is it -$4 or -2$ on Peddlers via the Procession-Hireling combo? (Hireling isn't in play any more, so I guess it's just Procession's -$2.)
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Read the card : (This stays in play.)

So Peddler cost 4 less.
 
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Ponton wrote:
In case 1), is it -$4 or -2$ on Peddlers via the Procession-Hireling combo? (Hireling isn't in play any more, so I guess it's just Procession's -$2.)

Correct.
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Donald X.
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Dominionaer wrote:
Read the card : (This stays in play.)

So Peddler cost 4 less.

Hireling normally stays in play, but in this case Procession trashed it. It's in the trash; it's not in play.
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donaldx wrote:
Dominionaer wrote:
Read the card : (This stays in play.)

So Peddler cost 4 less.

Hireling normally stays in play, but in this case Procession trashed it. It's in the trash; it's not in play.

Argh! BLUSH! Sorry! Was to much in hurry.
 
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Can I ask more about this? If I throne room a hireling or disciple it whatever. WHY does the throne room stay in play? Throne Room does NOT turn into a hireling so why would it stay in play. The throne room basically says play an action card then play an invisible copy of that card. The throne room (based on the text) should go to the discard.
 
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TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
Can I ask more about this? If I throne room a hireling or disciple it whatever. WHY does the throne room stay in play? Throne Room does NOT turn into a hireling so why would it stay in play. The throne room basically says play an action card then play an invisible copy of that card. The throne room (based on the text) should go to the discard.


It is because of the Seaside rules:

Seaside rules wrote:

If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that
other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing
anything. For example if you play Throne Room on Merchant
Ship, both cards stay in play until the Clean-up phase of your next
turn. The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are
getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn.
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TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
Can I ask more about this? If I throne room a hireling or disciple it whatever. WHY does the throne room stay in play? Throne Room does NOT turn into a hireling so why would it stay in play. The throne room basically says play an action card then play an invisible copy of that card. The throne room (based on the text) should go to the discard.

It's to track that you played it more than once.

And Throne Room does not create "invisible copies" of cards. It just does the card's on-play effect twice. This is important for cards that have while-in-play effects. For instance, if you use Throne Room to play a Highway (from Hinterlands) twice, you will end up drawing 2 cards and netting +1 Action (you spend an Action to play Throne Room, but then each play of Highway gives you +1 Action), but cards will not cost $2 less. You only have one copy of Highway in play, so cards only cost $1 less.
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Chris Schumann
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LastFootnote wrote:
For instance, if you use Throne Room to play a Highway (from Hinterlands) twice, you will end up drawing 2 cards and netting +1 Action (you spend an Action to play Throne Room, but then each play of Highway gives you +1 Action), but cards will not cost $2 less. You only have one copy of Highway in play, so cards only cost $1 less.

I'm sure you meant to say you'll net +2 Actions (as each play of Highway gives you an Action).

As a counter-example, if you Throne Room a Bridge (from Intrigue), then cards will cost $2 less, since it does not depend on being in play. (And you get +$2, and +2 Buys.)
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LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
Can I ask more about this? If I throne room a hireling or disciple it whatever. WHY does the throne room stay in play? Throne Room does NOT turn into a hireling so why would it stay in play. The throne room basically says play an action card then play an invisible copy of that card. The throne room (based on the text) should go to the discard.

It's to track that you played it more than once.

And Throne Room does not create "invisible copies" of cards. It just does the card's on-play effect twice. This is important for cards that have while-in-play effects. For instance, if you use Throne Room to play a Highway (from Hinterlands) twice, you will end up drawing 2 cards and netting +1 Action (you spend an Action to play Throne Room, but then each play of Highway gives you +1 Action), but cards will not cost $2 less. You only have one copy of Highway in play, so cards only cost $1 less.


Yes of course I know this. It why Goons don't give multiple VPs. But the invisible card still works because when it's time to check for conditions of cards it can't see the duplicate goons.

But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one. I understand it's done this way because the rules say so, but the card doesn't function that way. When duration cards game out it feel like there should've been a token you'd place to let you know that it is in play from a previous turn and if you throne room you should put two tokens on it. Or you simply shouldn't get the duration ability from the card doubled because your throne room is discarded.

I know the rules. I've played Dominion 2-3 thousand times easily (213 this year). I'm just looking for a why the rules were designed this way because it's not logically intuitive.
 
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Whizkid wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
For instance, if you use Throne Room to play a Highway (from Hinterlands) twice, you will end up [...] netting +1 Action (you spend an Action to play Throne Room, but then each play of Highway gives you +1 Action) [...]

I'm sure you meant to say you'll net +2 Actions (as each play of Highway gives you an Action).
[...]


You certainly end up with 2 actions, but that isn't what netting means.
You started with 1 action. You ended with 2. Net gain: +1 action.
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TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one.
But, huh? It's so easy to track that. For example, I play my Duration cards sideways and above my other cards. Then at the start of my turn, I turn those cards vertical as I resolve them. And then it's easy to remember: don't discard sideways cards at the end of your turn.
 
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LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one.
But, huh? It's so easy to track that. For example, I play my Duration cards sideways and above my other cards. Then at the start of my turn, I turn those cards vertical as I resolve them. And then it's easy to remember: don't discard sideways cards at the end of your turn.


So then why do you need to leave out the throne room to remember it hits twice?
 
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TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one.
But, huh? It's so easy to track that. For example, I play my Duration cards sideways and above my other cards. Then at the start of my turn, I turn those cards vertical as I resolve them. And then it's easy to remember: don't discard sideways cards at the end of your turn.


So then why do you need to leave out the throne room to remember it hits twice?

I don't understand your question. For Durations, I turn cards sideways to remind myself not to clean them up. I have no such mechanic for remembering how many times I played a Duration, other than leaving the Throne Room out with it.
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LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one.
But, huh? It's so easy to track that. For example, I play my Duration cards sideways and above my other cards. Then at the start of my turn, I turn those cards vertical as I resolve them. And then it's easy to remember: don't discard sideways cards at the end of your turn.


So then why do you need to leave out the throne room to remember it hits twice?

I don't understand your question. For Durations, I turn cards sideways to remind myself not to clean them up. I have no such mechanic for remembering how many times I played a Duration, other than leaving the Throne Room out with it.


My point is. Tapping works. I've always done it or I just remembered but you are saying that the reason that the throne room rule is written is so people can remember. But I'm saying tapping or tokens could easily remind players so they don't need to write an extra rule that makes cards disobey how they are written to work. I'm talking design principles and you are talking about something else completely.
 
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TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one.
But, huh? It's so easy to track that. For example, I play my Duration cards sideways and above my other cards. Then at the start of my turn, I turn those cards vertical as I resolve them. And then it's easy to remember: don't discard sideways cards at the end of your turn.


So then why do you need to leave out the throne room to remember it hits twice?

I don't understand your question. For Durations, I turn cards sideways to remind myself not to clean them up. I have no such mechanic for remembering how many times I played a Duration, other than leaving the Throne Room out with it.


My point is. Tapping works. I've always done it or I just remembered but you are saying that the reason that the throne room rule is written is so people can remember. But I'm saying tapping or tokens could easily remind players so they don't need to write an extra rule that makes cards disobey how they are written to work. I'm talking design principles and you are talking about something else completely.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you'd prefer that each set with Duration cards include tokens that your could use to denote that those cards were played multiple times. That seems…worse than just keeping the Throne Room in play. Either way you have to go to the rulebook to understand how to track it. Not having the tokens seems simpler, and thus better design.
 
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LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
But what I'm getting at is I don't like this it's to track thing. There's nothing that helps you track and the end of your turn wether that's a new lighthouse or an old one.
But, huh? It's so easy to track that. For example, I play my Duration cards sideways and above my other cards. Then at the start of my turn, I turn those cards vertical as I resolve them. And then it's easy to remember: don't discard sideways cards at the end of your turn.


So then why do you need to leave out the throne room to remember it hits twice?

I don't understand your question. For Durations, I turn cards sideways to remind myself not to clean them up. I have no such mechanic for remembering how many times I played a Duration, other than leaving the Throne Room out with it.


My point is. Tapping works. I've always done it or I just remembered but you are saying that the reason that the throne room rule is written is so people can remember. But I'm saying tapping or tokens could easily remind players so they don't need to write an extra rule that makes cards disobey how they are written to work. I'm talking design principles and you are talking about something else completely.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you'd prefer that each set with Duration cards include tokens that your could use to denote that those cards were played multiple times. That seems…worse than just keeping the Throne Room in play. Either way you have to go to the rulebook to understand how to track it. Not having the tokens seems simpler, and thus better design.


No I actually want the Throne Room to be discarded and the duration card to not be doubled on the next turn because that's how it's written.
 
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Honestly, I do hear cogs grinding and failing to mesh a little in this area. Witness the changed ruling concerning Throned Throne Room applied to a Duration. Things like Procession and Bonfire also complicate life.

It feels to me like the "right" way to deal with this is that when you play a Wharf card you get +2 Cards, +1 Buy, take a "+2 Cards, +1 Buy" Duration token. Then, if you throne Wharf you get two tokens. The Wharf cleans up as usual, then the Duration tokens are returned one by one as you benefit from them at the start of your next turn.

But that would require a bunch of extra tokens, so I can see why it wasn't done. (It's also not actually equivalent - you'd get to play Duration cards considerably more often, so they'd need rebalancing.)

Given the imperfect nature of the current situation, my hunch is that leaving out just the Duration cards is the solution I personally would find least-bad.
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TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
No I actually want the Throne Room to be discarded and the duration card to not be doubled on the next turn because that's how it's written.

Huh?

Wharf, to pick an example, says "Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 Cards, +1 Buy". So when you play it you get +2 Cards, +1 Buy now, and +2 Cards, +1 Buy at the start of your next turn.

If you play it twice, you get it twice now, then twice at the start of your next turn, because that's what the card says should happen when you play it, repeated twice over.

It seems you're reading Wharf as though it says "+2 Cards, +1 Buy. Leave this in play until your next turn. While this is in play, at the start of your turn +2 Cards, +1 Buy." It doesn't say that.
 
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clivej wrote:
TheOriginalJwoo wrote:
No I actually want the Throne Room to be discarded and the duration card to not be doubled on the next turn because that's how it's written.

Huh?

Wharf, to pick an example, says "Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 Cards, +1 Buy". So when you play it you get +2 Cards, +1 Buy now, and +2 Cards, +1 Buy at the start of your next turn.

If you play it twice, you get it twice now, then twice at the start of your next turn, because that's what the card says should happen when you play it, repeated twice over.

It seems you're reading Wharf as though it says "+2 Cards, +1 Buy. Leave this in play until your next turn. While this is in play, at the start of your turn +2 Cards, +1 Buy." It doesn't say that.
'

I'm saying, because this is how the card is written, I want this:

I play a Throne Room, then I play a Wharf. I know have +4 Cards +2 Buys. At the end of my turn I discard the throne room because the card doesn't say anything about it having to stay in play. Next turn all I get is +2 Cards and +1 Buy

BUT

I'm willing to say on my second turn I get +4 Cards and +1 Buy because I remember that I throned that wharf (If you can remember which wharfs you play on a given round vs a previous round you can remember this). Throne room says you play it twice not that it stay in play or it is a copy like Overlord so why does it stay in play.
 
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