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Subject: Questions about surplus gold and exchanging goods rss

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Rod Spade
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The rulebook says that surplus gold is converted to points, two for one. Nothing is received for an odd piece of surplus gold. In that case, may I place one less gold in my bank so that the "surplus" is even, and I get another point?

When doing a "free exchange of goods," you must use the received item immediately. Suppose I get food from placing a merchant cube on the board. If I don't have enough room in my warehouse then I "must remove good counters to make space for the newly acquired goods." May I make room for the food by converting an oil into a free action cube, and then "immediately" use that cube to perform my next action? Or is that not immediate enough, since I'm in the process of putting food into my warehouse?
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Tucker Taylor
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rodspade wrote:
The rulebook says that surplus gold is converted to points, two for one. Nothing is received for an odd piece of surplus gold. In that case, may I place one less gold in my bank so that the "surplus" is even, and I get another point?

It doesn't say you can, so I'd assume not. In general rules tend to be permissive, saying what you *can* do rather than enumerating everything you *can't* do.

Quote:
When doing a "free exchange of goods," you must use the received item immediately. Suppose I get food from placing a merchant cube on the board. If I don't have enough room in my warehouse then I "must remove good counters to make space for the newly acquired goods." May I make room for the food by converting an oil into a free action cube, and then "immediately" use that cube to perform my next action? Or is that not immediate enough, since I'm in the process of putting food into my warehouse?

This, on the other hand, might well work, because no one who writes rules is ever sufficiently clear on how immediate "immediate" is. I'd allow it, in part because you could have exchanged the oil before you started the action that got you the free food.
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James Clarke
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Quote:
When doing a "free exchange of goods," you must use the received item immediately. Suppose I get food from placing a merchant cube on the board. If I don't have enough room in my warehouse then I "must remove good counters to make space for the newly acquired goods." May I make room for the food by converting an oil into a free action cube, and then "immediately" use that cube to perform my next action? Or is that not immediate enough, since I'm in the process of putting food into my warehouse?

I don't think this is acceptable, because as you suggest, you're still doing an action. The rules state "must you immediately use the asset you exchanged them into. E.g. if you exchanged an oil good for a free action cube you would have to use the cube immediately"

So I'd say you cannot not interrupt the current action to do another action (spend the black cube).

Edit:
The rules also say "If you do not have sufficient space then you must remove good counters to make space for the newly acquired goods. The removed goods counters should be placed back to the pool of goods counters"

No mention is made of being able to convert the surplus goods at that point.

I suppose the wise move is to make space in your warehouse before commencing the Place Ship action.


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Jason Reid
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JazzFish wrote:
I'd allow it, in part because you could have exchanged the oil before you started the action that got you the free food.


But only if they would have used that free action cube to take the action which garnered the food. If that was possible, I'd essentially just be allowing them a "do-over" of their turn, but I'd likely be ok w/that.
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Rod Spade
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Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?
 
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Tucker Taylor
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rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?

If you're asking me, I'd say no (you have to be able to hold all three gold), but I'm not Martin Wallace.
 
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Jason Reid
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rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


I would assume not.

Quote:
Whenever you gain gold and do not have the room to store it
in your bank you immediately convert this surplus gold into
victory points, one point for every two such gold you have. You
then return the gold to the pool. This rule covers ALL situations
where you gain gold
.
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Jason Reid
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JazzFish wrote:
If you're asking me, I'd say no (you have to be able to hold all three gold), but I'm not Martin Wallace.


Yeah, honestly this is the sort of thing where even though the rules seem to categorically say that you can't do it, when it comes to Martin Wallace, I could totally see him saying, "Yes you can do that" if the question is put to him.
 
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James Clarke
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rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


I can't see anything wrong with this. You take the 2 gold out of your bank and cash in a wine token, = 3 gold for a ship upgrade.

 
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Jason Reid
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Highland Cow wrote:
rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


I can't see anything wrong with this. You take the 2 gold out of your bank and cash in a wine token, = 3 gold for a ship upgrade.


Sounds great, except how does it not go against the rules passage quoted above?
 
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James Clarke
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jasonwocky wrote:
Highland Cow wrote:
rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


I can't see anything wrong with this. You take the 2 gold out of your bank and cash in a wine token, = 3 gold for a ship upgrade.


Sounds great, except how does it not go against the rules passage quoted above?


You have two gold in the bank and you wish to take the Action: Ship Upgrade.
Triggering the Ship Upgrade Action has nothing to do with gaining gold, so the quoted rules passage doesn't apply. You can therefore pay your 2 gold, 1 wine (and 1 black cube), to trigger the action.

 
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Jason Reid
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Highland Cow wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:
Highland Cow wrote:
rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


I can't see anything wrong with this. You take the 2 gold out of your bank and cash in a wine token, = 3 gold for a ship upgrade.


Sounds great, except how does it not go against the rules passage quoted above?


You have two gold in the bank and you wish to take the Action: Ship Upgrade.
Triggering the Ship Upgrade Action has nothing to do with gaining gold, so the quoted rules passage doesn't apply. You can therefore pay your 2 gold, 1 wine (and 1 black cube), to trigger the action.


But you don't pay with wine, you exchange wine for gold.

Like I said earlier, I'd basically give 50-50 odds on which side MW would come down on here (or honestly, it's probably more like 40-60 in your interpretation's favor). But to say that you "can't see anything wrong with this" seems to be deliberately ignoring the rule about what happens when you gain gold. And it wasn't me that capitalized the text in "This rule covers ALL situations where you gain gold"...it's capitalized in the rules.
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James Clarke
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Good point. I suppose my interpretation was rather swayed by the notion of wine "the liquid asset".

Hopefully, this wine issue will soon be clarified .
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Michael Noakes
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So... was this ever clarified?

Playing my first game tonight, and these seem like the kind of situations that could very easily come up during play.

And if my surplus gold is uneven, can I spend a gold from my bank to make it even, and earn the extra point?
 
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James Clarke
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I'm awaiting a reply from the Wallaces.
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Michael Noakes
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Cheers!
 
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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I'm very much hesitant on this one.
At first, I was sure that it wasn't possible. You first exchange the wine for gold and then use this gold for the action. If you don't have space in your bank for the gold, it is lost. But thinking more about it, I have doubts.
Too bad I didn't think about it while I was in Essen, I could have asked Martin in person.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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rodspade wrote:
The rulebook says that surplus gold is converted to points, two for one. Nothing is received for an odd piece of surplus gold. In that case, may I place one less gold in my bank so that the "surplus" is even, and I get another point?"


That situation happened a few times during my first game.
We allowed to do it, because you will also have one less coin in your bank. enough penalty for one point.

Quote:
When doing a "free exchange of goods," you must use the received item immediately. Suppose I get food from placing a merchant cube on the board. If I don't have enough room in my warehouse then I "must remove good counters to make space for the newly acquired goods." May I make room for the food by converting an oil into a free action cube, and then "immediately" use that cube to perform my next action? Or is that not immediate enough, since I'm in the process of putting food into my warehouse?


I would say no. In my games you are never allowed to interruped actions to take another actions, benefits or bonus. You must complete it first.

In your example the action will only be completed when you place the goods on your warehouse. So you will lose the extra food.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?

I would say you can. Since you need to expend that gold immediately; you may make the exchange at the same time you are taking the upgrade action.

So in less words, you just pay 2 coins and one wine to upgrade the ship.
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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newrev wrote:
rodspade wrote:
The rulebook says that surplus gold is converted to points, two for one. Nothing is received for an odd piece of surplus gold. In that case, may I place one less gold in my bank so that the "surplus" is even, and I get another point?"


That situation happened a few times during my first game.
We allowed to do it, because you will also have one less coin in your bank. enough penalty for one point.

As the rules cleary state "the surplus is converted into VPs" I would say it is not allowed. The gold spent from the bank is not surplus.
That's my understanding.
 
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James Clarke
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Highland Cow wrote:

I'm awaiting a reply from the Wallaces.


The two questions I have asked the Wallaces, are as follows:

PAGE 13 - "WINE - Wine can be exchanged for one gold"

Q1 - Can you therefore, (a) spend a wine as if it were a gold, or (b) must you have room in your bank to first convert your wine into gold before spending it?

Then, if the answer to Q1 is (b):

Q2 - If your bank is full with 2 gold but you need to spend 3 gold on your action, could you pay with 2 gold, then exchange 1 wine for 1 gold, then complete payment with that 1 gold?

 
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Vital Lacerda
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Quote:
As the rules cleary state "the surplus is converted into VPs" I would say it is not allowed. The gold spent from the bank is not surplus.
That's my understanding.


In this situation I'm not spending money from the bank, I'm simply not placing it there. So, I'm storing one less coin.

The problem here is really another: must I have to store all money in my bank, or can I simple make the choice of how much I can save, and how much I want to trade for points.
To me makes more sence, letting this be a players choice. But Martin will say.

After a game I change my mine.
 
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Just finished another game of Ships. This time I tried the rule where you need to filled your bank totaly and cannot place one less coin to score one point.
I must say, contrary of my above opinion the game is much more interesting.
So. As you many of you, I 'm also on the fence. Right now I really prefer as I played this time.
So, Martin is really need here.
 
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Christian Fuerst-Brunner
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rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


You can.

Rulebook, p13 wrote:
"FREE EXCHANGE OF GOODS

Some goods can be exchanged during your turn. This does not
count as an action. You can exchange as many goods as you wish
during your turn BUT only if you immediately use the asset you
exchanged them into. E.g. if you exchanged an oil good for a free
action cube you would have to use the cube immediately, you
can never store the asset you exchanged for in your available
stock
.


 
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Jason Reid
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Cyberian wrote:
rodspade wrote:
Suppose my bank can only hold two gold, and I want to pay three gold to Upgrade a ship. Can I do a "free exchange" to use a Wine as the third gold?


You can.

Rulebook, p13 wrote:
"FREE EXCHANGE OF GOODS

Some goods can be exchanged during your turn. This does not
count as an action. You can exchange as many goods as you wish
during your turn BUT only if you immediately use the asset you
exchanged them into. E.g. if you exchanged an oil good for a free
action cube you would have to use the cube immediately, you
can never store the asset you exchanged for in your available
stock
.




Nobody's trying to store the asset.
 
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