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Subject: Cthulhu Wars and Kingdom Death: the future of premium boardgaming rss

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Arturo Cavari
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To continue the discussion started on Ask Sandy 4.

buruburub wrote:
Smilinbrax wrote:

If they sell a single copy of the base game at "MSRP" I will be shocked. Compare what you get for 400 bucks there and what you get with Cthulhu Wars and expansions.

I agree, there is no competition between the two.


I have to agree that as interested in the game and as intrigued by the lore and concept as I am, I am simply not willing to pay that much for it (plus probably half of that again in international shipping lol). Heck, I was even too cheap to fork out for the pre-order price of $275.

I really think CW has managed to hit a lot closer to the sweet spot re: pricing, and as such seems better positioned to push into retail despite KMD arguably having run a more successful kickstarter (although I don't think backer numbers/pledged funds should be the sole indicators of that).



I think that hobbyists (I hope that's the correct spelling) are also willing to pay more for KDM, since it provides them with hours of "fun" assembling the models.
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Danny Lamprey
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I got both... I like them.
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Digmecolder wrote:
I got both... I like them.


Do you feel like you would pay more money (for a game, not per miniature) for unassembled miniatures, since you have fun putting them together?
 
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Bruce Moffatt
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If I had been more flush with funds, I would have bought in on KD at the pre-order price. I enjoy the hobby component of assembling and painting miniatures, and KD seems to have great solo playability, which is an important factor for me.
Having said that, I would be unlikely to pay $400 for KD, even if I had the money spare.
 
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Simona Dostalova
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I could bought KD but I don't want to. It just doesn't seem interesting to me. I saw the gameplay video from Gen Con and it was meh. On the other hand, I will probably go all in on the CW:O2...or if not all in, then like 80% in ninja
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Marko Parviainen
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Well, I bought almost everything on KDM kickstarter (Game, all of the expansions and most of the promos) and I'm DVM backer for CW. So obviously I am prepared to pay large sum of money and take a gamble that these games are good. CW didn't disappoint in that regard and everything I'm hearing of KDM from the people that already have gotten that game, it sounds like it is too going to be my kind of game.

I rather pay more money on one good game than on four mediocre games that will stay on the shelf (I have more than enough of those games already).

I admit it though that taking part on a kickstarter without knowing beforehand if the game is any good IS a gamble. I got disapointed on several other kickstarters that have already delivered the game to me.

I guess you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best. Or wait till the game gomes out and you can read some reviews before deciding to pay the price or not.
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Danny Lamprey
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thegrinder wrote:
Digmecolder wrote:
I got both... I like them.


Do you feel like you would pay more money (for a game, not per miniature) for unassembled miniatures, since you have fun putting them together?


I don't know... It depends on the game. For instance, Shadows of Brimstone. That game has an average $70.00 to $80.00 dollar price tag (or at least when it first hit retail.) and those minis have to be put together. However, I didn't like those minis... They weren't great quality so I wasn't too enthused about paying for that game with subpar minis and having to put them together. Or Myth. Beautifully designed game with an almost insurmountable amount of mechanics and rules problems that to this day are still being clarified.

In the sense of KD: Monster, I love it. Also, the customization that can go into each mini (with the various armor kits) is really interesting. I enjoy the gameplay as well. CW is probably more my jam in the sense of its theme.

I'm not sure I would say one is overpriced while the other isn't. I think CW's price point is fair. I also don't think there should be a smaller more affordable version of it. KD: Monster is certainly a "boutique" item as well but, not for everyone. It's price is hefty but I think it is worth the experience. If you like all of the aspects associated with it. I would have happily assembled CW as well.

So yes, I would pay more if the experience and quality are there. Sorry, I got long winded... Don't get me wrong, I don't have the budget to have hundreds of games like these in my home but, the ones that stand out, I will give them a shot.
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Maybe I'm an odd duck, but there is NOTHING about miniature assembly that I find fun. Not a thing.
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Danny Lamprey
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I can understand it... It's a pain if you just want to play the game and not worry about it. Tom Vasel still hasn't reviewed Shadows of Brimstone because he just doesn't want to put those minis together. Sandy Petersen is in the same boat... So I get it. I happen to like it but, it isn't for everyone.
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senorcoo wrote:
Maybe I'm an odd duck, but there is NOTHING about miniature assembly that I find fun. Not a thing.


I'm also in that camp. I find the other perspective very interesting though, especially since it's a target for really expensive games.
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thegrinder wrote:
To continue the discussion started on Ask Sandy 4.

buruburub wrote:
Smilinbrax wrote:

If they sell a single copy of the base game at "MSRP" I will be shocked. Compare what you get for 400 bucks there and what you get with Cthulhu Wars and expansions.

I agree, there is no competition between the two.


I have to agree that as interested in the game and as intrigued by the lore and concept as I am, I am simply not willing to pay that much for it (plus probably half of that again in international shipping lol). Heck, I was even too cheap to fork out for the pre-order price of $275.

I really think CW has managed to hit a lot closer to the sweet spot re: pricing, and as such seems better positioned to push into retail despite KMD arguably having run a more successful kickstarter (although I don't think backer numbers/pledged funds should be the sole indicators of that).



I think that hobbyists (I hope that's the correct spelling) are also willing to pay more for KDM, since it provides them with hours of "fun" assembling the models.


And you'd be wrong and pretty insulting to boot. I absolutely despise assembling minis and I got every gameplay expansion for KDM during the KS; there's an INSANELY good game there; easily as good as Cthulhu Wars and the idea that you have to be one or the other and disparage the other group while you're at it is silly.
 
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I would be lying if I said that I didn't want KDM. Because I do. I haven't felt this tempted by a board game since pre-ordering CW (why do I always find out about these monsters after their kickstarters finishcry?)

But for me it's the artwork, the concept, and all of the components lined up in that beautiful black box rather than the minis that are appealing to me.

As someone with very little experience with miniatures, I'm sure I'd end up ruining most of them anyway

 
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ColHammer wrote:
I rather pay more money on one good game than on four mediocre games that will stay on the shelf (I have more than enough of those games already).


THIS! This is my entire raison d'etre for Cthulhu Wars. You have struck home with this remark.

And, frankly, I think it is the concept behind KDM as well.

My own problem with assembling minis is that I am now 60 years old. My eyesight and coordination have been dropping to elementary school levels. So if I want to play KDM I have to trick someone else into assembling them for me. One fan offered to drop by my house and assemble my Shadows Over Brimstone minis, but I suspect it was a ploy to get a peek at the CW miniatures. Which he is welcome to do anytime.
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Magic Pink wrote:

And you'd be wrong and pretty insulting to boot. I absolutely despise assembling minis and I got every gameplay expansion for KDM during the KS; there's an INSANELY good game there; easily as good as Cthulhu Wars and the idea that you have to be one or the other and disparage the other group while you're at it is silly.


I'm sorry if I sounded disparaging, because that's not what I was trying to do at all... lament at my inability to purchase KDM might be closer.

You're certainly right, I don't think there is a need to pick one and stick your nose up at the other, and I think you'll find there is a considerable overlap of backers between the two.
 
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I see kingdom death positioning itself squarely in the Warhammer level of cost. The price Adam plans on charging are easily GWs pricing model. That is, if he's not just inflating the price to get more preorders at $270.00.

The problem I see, is that people will gladly pay crazy money and assemble miniatures for their favorite established minitaure game. However they are not so crazy about forking over the cash for a boardgame with RPG pretensions. Adam is pretty much setting it up to be a lifestyle game like Warhammer with his planned expansions. So the real question is whether he can create enough impetus to keep a lot of people on the hook for years buying his miniatures.

For my money, I will need to see a spectacular game before I would even think about getting into it. The more money, the better this thing has to be.

Of course, we don't get to see the rules, so I'll never know unless I play with someone who has a copy.

Edited to add: And this is definitely a play first game. While I enjoy being told how much a game roxxers by it's rabid fans as much as the next guy, there is nothing like playing it yourself. I still want to see reviews, as they will influence me as to how much effort I want to put into seeking someone out to play it.
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David Boeren
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There are lots of "big minis games" on Kickstarter. But any company can throw a bunch of plastic dudes in a box. What makes Cthulhu Wars distinct (other than theme) is that it also has great rules.

Most Kickstarter games do not want to reveal their rules. After seeing how many of them turned out, presumably this is due to shame because they are so poorly done.
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senorcoo wrote:
Maybe I'm an odd duck, but there is NOTHING about miniature assembly that I find fun. Not a thing.


My words exactly: unassembled minis are an immediate turnoff for me
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David Boeren
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Like most "craft" sort of activities, you have to have a minimum skill level before it becomes fun. Prior to that it's just work. But if you are the sort who likes to customize minis and can perform your own modifications, reposing, sculpting additions, basing, and painting - then assembling minis can indeed be interesting in itself.

Speaking from 8 years of Warmachine experience...
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dboeren wrote:
Like most "craft" sort of activities, you have to have a minimum skill level before it becomes fun. Prior to that it's just work. But if you are the sort who likes to customize minis and can perform your own modifications, reposing, sculpting additions, basing, and painting - then assembling minis can indeed be interesting in itself.

Speaking from 8 years of Warmachine experience...


I played 40k, Warmachine, and Mage Knight (the minature game). I also paint miniatures for RPGs. I love the painting but have never loved the assembly. And to be honest, When prepainted miniatures were available (Mage Knight) I think I got more fun out of playing. No worrying about miniatures chipping, no huge foam cases, no half painted armies, etc.

If the original Wizkids had really playtested their product more, I'd probably still be playing Mage Knight. By the time it ended, it was a full miniatures game like both Warhammer and Warmachine. The balance was just so royally screwed and the rules were so bloated that it turned people away.
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I hate assembly *and* painting, but LOVE the results. While I'm no display painter, I like how what I've painted *cannot* be found on a retail shelf -- at least without a hefty price tag.

And, speaking of price tag, painting makes it *much* easier to skip an costly add-on! For every ridiculously overpriced plastic miniature I don't have, that's ten bucks and several hours of my life back.

Pity it gets wasted on filling up OLGS shopping carts, internet forums, and Sims 3. laugh
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I would have bought into KDM in a big, big way, but the miniature assembly completely turned me off. I appreciate that there are people for whom that sort of thing is interesting, but I just want to play the game. So it goes.
 
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Smilinbrax wrote:
I played 40k, Warmachine, and Mage Knight (the minature game). I also paint miniatures for RPGs. I love the painting but have never loved the assembly. And to be honest, When prepainted miniatures were available (Mage Knight) I think I got more fun out of playing. No worrying about miniatures chipping, no huge foam cases, no half painted armies, etc.

If the original Wizkids had really playtested their product more, I'd probably still be playing Mage Knight. By the time it ended, it was a full miniatures game like both Warhammer and Warmachine. The balance was just so royally screwed and the rules were so bloated that it turned people away.


I expect very different things out of a true miniatures game (Warmachine, etc...) versus a boardgame that uses miniatures. A miniatures game is a long-term commitment from both the player and the company. It includes concepts like ongoing new releases, tournament support, maintaining balance through those new releases, etc... It's very similar to the difference between a CCG/LCG versus "just" a card game that lets you tweak your decks such as Summoner Wars.
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Sandy Petersen wrote:
ColHammer wrote:
I rather pay more money on one good game than on four mediocre games that will stay on the shelf (I have more than enough of those games already).


THIS! This is my entire raison d'etre for Cthulhu Wars. You have struck home with this remark.


Of course, "good" and "mediocre" are subjective, as well as what has value.
There are many "great" games that don't cost half a much as either of these two.
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senorcoo wrote:
Maybe I'm an odd duck, but there is NOTHING about miniature assembly that I find fun. Not a thing.


I agree with this statement.

I didn't realize that until I bought Battles of Westeros! That's one of the biggest complaints about that game.
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n815e wrote:
Of course, "good" and "mediocre" are subjective, as well as what has value.
There are many "great" games that don't cost half a much as either of these two.


Quoted for truth.

The majority of my games are in the $40-$60 range, and I love all of those.

More money ≠ better game.
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