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Subject: Can a player choose not to place a political alignment marker? rss

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marc lecours
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We had a situation in our game yesterday where Churchill had one political alignment marker left to play and he had an available place to play it (on one of his clandestine markers). He chose not to place it because it made him vulnerable to a condition 2 win conditions. (in other words he did not want any more points).

Rule 7.31 states: "A player may place political alignment markers in any country or colony where he has at least one clandestine marker." The word "may" implies that the player has the choice to not play the political alignment marker.

On the other hand rule 7.3 states: "A player places all of his markers before play passes to the next player." This implies that the game stops if a player does not place all their political alignment markers. In other words it implies that a player must play all of their political alignment markers.

We were uncertain about the proper interpretation.

I am really enjoying the game. We have 3 games under our belt. One win for each of the 3 players of our play group. We have been switching roles. Also we have one win for Churchill, one for Stalin and one for Roosevelt/Truman. Also we have had all three types of victory (once each for condition 1, 2 and 3). We have beaten Germany 3 times (once by USSR alone, once by the West alone, and Once it was a tie.). Also the pacific has ended 3 ways (once Japan was not conquered, once the US front occupied Japan and once Japan surrendered because of the A-Bomb. In other words there is a variety of results.
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Francisco Colmenares
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You could place your marker in the pool with other unavailable markers rather than a country. That satisfies the "place all your markers" condition

After all, what happens with a PA marker that you can't place because there's no room for it? It gets discarded.
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Wendell
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The 'may' to me indicates a choice. I'd say the player could decide, in the spirit of friendship and cooperation with his/her esteemed Allies, not to use a pol marker that you have available.
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Adam Parker
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Quote:
7.3 Political Alignment

Each player possessing Political Alignment markers places them in countries or colonies where he has Clandestine Networks.

Players take turns placing all of their Political Alignment markers at once. As with Clandestine Networks earlier, the player with the greatest number of Political Alignment markers to place goes first, followed by the player with the second most, followed by the third player. A player places all of his markers before play passes to the next player.



7.31 expands on 7.3.
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marc lecours
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Adam Parker wrote:
Quote:
7.3 Political Alignment

Each player possessing Political Alignment markers places them in countries or colonies where he has Clandestine Networks.

Players take turns placing all of their Political Alignment markers at once. As with Clandestine Networks earlier, the player with the greatest number of Political Alignment markers to place goes first, followed by the player with the second most, followed by the third player. A player places all of his markers before play passes to the next player.



7.31 expands on 7.3.


Then according to the wording above, the player must play them in countries and colonies where he has clandestine networks.

Or am I not interpreting your interpretation correctly?
 
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Bruce Gazdecki
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I read it that you have to place them if you have the ability to place them. The only way you wouldn't would be if you used all your new clandestine markers to remove other players' markers, and already have your own spaces full.

I could be wrong.
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marc lecours
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colmenarez wrote:
You could place your marker in the pool with other unavailable markers rather than a country. That satisfies the "place all your markers" condition

After all, what happens with a PA marker that you can't place because there's no room for it? It gets discarded.


At first I was leaning toward agreeing with you. But the more I think about it, the more I am thinking that the political control marker must be played if it can be played.

The logic is the following: You negotiated to get political control markers. Returning them to the pool is the equivalent of declining to use the issue that you won. Why should that be allowed? What if the soviet union won the Atomic bomb issue and then decided at the last moment (after seeing the results of other negotiations) not to claim the advance for the USSR on the Atomic bomb track. This defeats the purpose of condition 2 victory.

The idea behind the condition 2 victory is that if you negotiate too hard to gain advantages, then you have to live with the consequences. You can't just say: Oh by the way all those points I got, well I am not going to claim 10 of them so that I win by only 12 points not 22.

So anyways, I now think that the spirit of the game requires that if you have a place to play a political control marker then you should be required to do so.

A different point is: "What is the actual rule as written?" A specific rule might go against the general spirit of the game if that is the rule. No problem with that. Which gets me back to square one, which is that I am not sure what the rule as written is. To me, it could go either way. I can see that the intention might have been to allow a player not to place the political marker or I can see that the intention might have been to force political markers to be played if possible.

I am divided.



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Brad Miller
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I think the "may" wording in only referring to the conditions required to play an alignment marker, while having nothing to say about whether or not some other game procedure must be taken.

It is a permissive way to say: "A player can only place".
Compare to saying it in this way: "A player may place".

They are the same. Or rather, arrive at the same end condition.

I think you should be able to choose not to, but you could have always let some one else win that issue, so I don't know. Will be interested to see the answer.
 
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Adam Parker
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rubberchicken wrote:
Adam Parker wrote:
Quote:
7.3 Political Alignment

Each player possessing Political Alignment markers places them in countries or colonies where he has Clandestine Networks.

Players take turns placing all of their Political Alignment markers at once. As with Clandestine Networks earlier, the player with the greatest number of Political Alignment markers to place goes first, followed by the player with the second most, followed by the third player. A player places all of his markers before play passes to the next player.



7.31 expands on 7.3.


Then according to the wording above, the player must play them in countries and colonies where he has clandestine networks.

Or am I not interpreting your interpretation correctly?


Hi Marc. Yes that’s right. Note, I’m not actually interpreting anything here. Just quoting the rule verbatim.

See page 30 of the play example (adjust it per page 1 of the errata/clarifications though!) - also see the question re Political Markers on page 3 of that document. The effective phrase there is “that I cannot place” not “that I choose not to place”.
 
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marc lecours
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It looks like this issue is undecided:

There are 3 votes for having the option not to play a political marker if you don't want to. ( Colmenares, wifwendel and Paul Trad)

There are 3 votes for being forced to play a political control marker if there is a legal place available to play it. (Adam Parker, Bruce Gazdecki and Marc Lecours(me))

Brad Miller seemed undecided and was awaiting an official clarification.

So if I interpreted the comments of the people above correctly, the voting stands at 3 to 3 and one uncertain.
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Maybe I can ping Mark and ask him to answer definitively. I honestly have no idea which way is correct.
 
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Mark Herman
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rubberchicken wrote:
We had a situation in our game yesterday where Churchill had one political alignment marker left to play and he had an available place to play it (on one of his clandestine markers). He chose not to place it because it made him vulnerable to a condition 2 win conditions. (in other words he did not want any more points).

Rule 7.31 states: "A player may place political alignment markers in any country or colony where he has at least one clandestine marker." The word "may" implies that the player has the choice to not play the political alignment marker.

On the other hand rule 7.3 states: "A player places all of his markers before play passes to the next player." This implies that the game stops if a player does not place all their political alignment markers. In other words it implies that a player must play all of their political alignment markers.

We were uncertain about the proper interpretation.

I am really enjoying the game. We have 3 games under our belt. One win for each of the 3 players of our play group. We have been switching roles. Also we have one win for Churchill, one for Stalin and one for Roosevelt/Truman. Also we have had all three types of victory (once each for condition 1, 2 and 3). We have beaten Germany 3 times (once by USSR alone, once by the West alone, and Once it was a tie.). Also the pacific has ended 3 ways (once Japan was not conquered, once the US front occupied Japan and once Japan surrendered because of the A-Bomb. In other words there is a variety of results.


All must be placed if possible. You should not win Pol-Mil that you do not want. It is true of everything in the game, the war goes on whether you want to participate or not. You cannot modulate actions, all that can be done must be done.
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Wendell
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MarkHerman wrote:


All must be placed if possible. You should not win Pol-Mil that you do not want. It is true of everything in the game, the war goes on whether you want to participate or not. You cannot modulate actions, all that can be done must be done.


Well, been playing THAT rule wrong!
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Joel Tamburo
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So to be complete here, if you win a Pol-Mill issue you MUST use a Production to "power" it if you have said Production correct?
 
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Bruce Gazdecki
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Joelist wrote:
So to be complete here, if you win a Pol-Mill issue you MUST use a Production to "power" it if you have said Production correct?


I don't think you have to "power it".

6.4

Players must allocate all of their productions markers, including
bonuses, and they must be allocated first to the following
priorities:

1. Allocations mandated by the current conference card (see 6.6)
2. Directed Offensives (two production markers each; see 6.7)

After these two priorities have been satisfied, a player can freely
allocate his remaining production markers to place offensive
support and naval support markers (6.5), activate Pol-Mil issues
(6.8), and gain modifiers for A-Bomb Research (6.10)


6.8:
A Pol-Mill Issue that is not activated has no effect.

I think you can win the issue and then not power the issue, but once you power the issue have to place the marker.

But that is just my interpretation.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Bruiser419 wrote:
Joelist wrote:
So to be complete here, if you win a Pol-Mill issue you MUST use a Production to "power" it if you have said Production correct?


I don't think you have to "power it".

6.4

Players must allocate all of their productions markers, including
bonuses, and they must be allocated first to the following
priorities:

1. Allocations mandated by the current conference card (see 6.6)
2. Directed Offensives (two production markers each; see 6.7)

After these two priorities have been satisfied, a player can freely
allocate his remaining production markers to place offensive
support and naval support markers (6.5), activate Pol-Mil issues
(6.8), and gain modifiers for A-Bomb Research (6.10)


6.8:
A Pol-Mill Issue that is not activated has no effect.

I think you can win the issue and then not power the issue, but once you power the issue have to place the marker.

But that is just my interpretation.


That rule does seem pretty clear. You must satisfy conditions 1 and 2, then you can choose between the rest of the listed options freely.
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Adam Parker
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Joelist wrote:
So to be complete here, if you win a Pol-Mill issue you MUST use a Production to "power" it if you have said Production correct?


No not at all. But if you have a Political Marker you then must place it if you can.

In other words, you can win a Pol-Mil issue just to take it off the table/deny it to others. What you do with it after is up to you.

Converting it to a Political Marker, however, simulates your decision to impose your will on another country. Then you must follow through and put it on the map assuming you’ve laid the right clandestine groundwork for its ascendancy.

It’s a valid tactic to win a Pol-Mil issue and then forget about it.

Hence 6.8:

Quote:
A pol-Mill issue that is not activated has no effect.


(There’s a typo there btw )
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marc lecours
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thx to Mark for the clear reply and to all others for their input.

As for paying for the pol-mil issue, this did not come up in our game. The political alignment marker had been obtained by the using Winston Churchill to move the Global issue.
 
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Joelist wrote:
So to be complete here, if you win a Pol-Mill issue you MUST use a Production to "power" it if you have said Production correct?


In addition to the others' answers, I'd like to add that the extended play example is quite clear:
Stalin refrains to spend Production for his won P/M issue because Roosevelt promised 2 OS for the Far Eastern front.
 
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DocOne wrote:
Joelist wrote:
So to be complete here, if you win a Pol-Mill issue you MUST use a Production to "power" it if you have said Production correct?


In addition to the others' answers, I'd like to add that the extended play example is quite clear:
Stalin refrains to spend Production for his won P/M issue because Roosevelt promised 2 OS for the Far Eastern front.


Oh I concur. I am just making sure all bases are covered.
 
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Tim Moore
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just to extend this one more step...

you could use the PA marker to remove a PA marker...correct?

Can you do that without having a covert network?

or if you want to Remove a Political Alignment marker, do you first have to build the clandestine networks, (remove their chips and add your own) and then remove the PA?

Thanks.
 
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Windmilling wrote:
just to extend this one more step...

you could use the PA marker to remove a PA marker...correct?

Can you do that without having a covert network?


The rules very clearly state that you cannot place your own or remove someone else PA marker unless you have a clandestine network in the space.


Windmilling wrote:
or if you want to Remove a Political Alignment marker, do you first have to build the clandestine networks, (remove their chips and add your own) and then remove the PA?


As the rules state, this is the correct way to do it.

Rules, Page 15:

7.32 Political Alignment Marker Removal

In a country or colony where a player has a Clandestine Network, he may discard one (or more, depending on the current Global Issue statuses; see 6.11) of his own unplayed Political Alignment markers, in lieu of playing it, to remove another player’s Political Alignment marker in that country/colony.
 
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