Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

El Caballero» Forums » General

Subject: Lakes with many ships are too powerfull rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ivo Hunink
Netherlands
Utrecht
Utrecht
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Guys, I really like to have your oppinion about this. I played this game I think 30 times now with two players and found this quite interesting:

When a lake is getting huge (for example 6 tiles + 2 extra fish points) its getting powerfull when a player has a lot of ships on it. In my games it happened that one player had 6 boats at such a big lake and get 6 times 8 points = 48 (which is a lot!).

The problem is that the opponent isn't able to remove any ships from the player. This way, the player with a lot of ships on the huge lake always wins.

What do you think?

(By the way, I now try to play it with a simple rule change, but tell you later )
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Poolman
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
Our group made this realization at some point: a large water mass is a very efficient way to make points. For others who read this thread who haven't though about it yet, adding a land tile to a land mass you control adds 2 (or 4, with gold) points. Adding a sea tile to a sea on which you have even 3 ships adds 3 (or 6, with fish) points. Since it is relatively easy to get 4 or more ships on a single sea, seas can be a more important scoring mechanism than land. I think this is only striking if you first play the game (as I did) focusing on lands as the important scoring mechanism.

Our group now plays accordingly: tiles with three water sides (which allow you to add additional ships to a sea on which you already have ships) go high in the auction. Since it is an auction game, I think it adjusts just fine. I actually enjoy it even more now than I used to.

So my general suggestion is to just view the competition as revolving significantly around getting good seas; don't change the rules, change the way you think about the game. More specifically, one of my goals in the early game is to pick up ships; even if they sit on one-point seas for now, I will have them if I build a big sea later, or will keep them away from other players.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivo Hunink
Netherlands
Utrecht
Utrecht
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Hi Eric,
Sorry for my late reply.

You are correct, I focussed on lands as the most important scoring mechaism.

When you play with the original rules, water tiles with three sides go very high in auction. Thats true.

We tried to change our way we think about the game but there is one big problem with large seas. You can't get rid of the ships of your opponent. When I got 5 ships on a lake and Im making the lake bigger and bigger, the opponent doesnt have any chance of stopping me. When this happens, the game is not as tactical as it was with the land (because you have to block your opponent etc) and the only option for the opponent is to create another big sea. This way its some kind of race to get the biggest sea.

What we had changed is very simple. Now the player with the most ships on one sea gets the points. It is allowed to have the same number of ships on one see (then both players get the points).

When playing with this rule, the seas give a good value to the player but are not that important as the lands. This way the tactical point of the game gets greater.

Hope you understand and if not, just reply and I will explain.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Ward
United States
Fort Worth
Texas
flag msg tools
Quote:
You can't get rid of the ships of your opponent.


Oh, but you can. Force him to remove his caballero card with the ships on it by flanking him and putting his card in contact with two land segments. Not always easy, but it can be done.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivo Hunink
Netherlands
Utrecht
Utrecht
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Michael Ward wrote:
Quote:
You can't get rid of the ships of your opponent.


Oh, but you can. Force him to remove his caballero card with the ships on it by flanking him and putting his card in contact with two land segments. Not always easy, but it can be done.


Yes You are correct, but in this game (when you play with two players) it is almost impossible to 'waste' two turns or your 9-powercard for removing one caballero card with much ships. And when you dont use your 9-powercard its easy for your opponent to protect his ships with another caballero card. Also I think that two turns of the ten is just to much to just remove for example 8 points (1 caballero card with 2 ships in a sea with 3 cards and one fishpoint).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Ward
United States
Fort Worth
Texas
flag msg tools
So, you don't think taking two turns or using your 9 power card is worth keeping your opponent from making the 48 points you originally mentioned? That doesn't sound like a "waste" to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivo Hunink
Netherlands
Utrecht
Utrecht
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Michael Ward wrote:
So, you don't think taking two turns or using your 9 power card is worth keeping your opponent from making the 48 points you originally mentioned? That doesn't sound like a "waste" to me.


It depends. When it takes me two cards and I can remove 2 ships of 8 points it is wotrh it. But you can only do this once with the 9 card. Thereafter the opponent can always block it with another Caballero card.

Most of times, when you are 'racing' for the biggest lake its better to put those two cards in your own sea.

But the biggest problem I got that the game gets less tactical and more racing for the biggest sea.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivo Hunink
Netherlands
Utrecht
Utrecht
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
All together, I played the game 5 times with my new rule and I think its better and more competetive now with two players.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Beckey
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just played a game in which I focused mainly on building a big lake with plenty of ships. This proved to be very powerful in a two player game. My score was 30 points higher than usual. Thanks for pointing out this strategy.

I'd like to play a four player game to see if big scoring lakes would still be possible.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ivo Hunink
Netherlands
Utrecht
Utrecht
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
beckeykevin wrote:
I just played a game in which I focused mainly on building ... be possible.


Dear Kevin,

Please let me know how it plays with 4 players. Don't you think it's difficult to win a game, if your opponent has such a large lake, in a two player game?

I still find it sometimes really annoying that I can't kill his or her ships.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Felix Rodriguez
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
So there's a big lake and you put NO ships on it? When a big lake forms in my games more than one player gets a stake in it... Making it worth significantly less than land where one player gets everything.

For example take your 6 tile / 8 point space. Now I have 4 sea items and my opponent has 2. That nets me 16 points. and it cost me probably around 12 caballeros. My opponent was at the same time steadily growing a land area, creating a 6 tile / 2 gold area... That he closed off with a mayor. That nets him the same 16 points, BUT it only cost him 1 caballero. I'm doomed in the future rounds.

Okay so that's an oversimplification of the dynamics involved. But really in the end you will win if you fight over all the high scoring areas: land AND water.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.