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Subject: Evolution discussion (split from New Christian themed game) rss

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Jeff Coon
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Drew1365 wrote:
Oh . . . no . . . please . . . no . . .

As if attacking evolutionary theory is the most pressing concern for modern Christians. Hey, how about serving others the way Jesus commanded, eh?


So very true.

Also, I don't know why popular opinion seems to think you can't be Christian and believe in evolution. It's rather insulting. As if the two concepts are mutually exclusive. But as long as it gets evangelicals worked up and buying books, people will continue to push it as a hot-button issue.
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Matthew Fischer
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
I think this from the DVD listed a little later might be pretty funny, but I'm not sure what it is intended to prove:

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Join Kirk and Ray as they take an orangutan to lunch, and call major airlines and ask if a "relative" can join them on a plane.


And how clever they are in the design of the DVD case:

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The graphics on this DVD have been designed so that there is no indication that it is Christian or anti-evolution.


It's always a bad sign when you have to be dishonest about the content of your presentation to get your intended audience to watch. They'll be tricked by it and instead of getting pissed off, they'll change their minds? Hm.

No, but seriously, I'm probably going to order this because the thought of watching Kirk Cameron eating lunch with an orangutan entertains me to no end.
 
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T. B.
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Damn. I used to think the theory of evolution was scientifically viable, but then I found out that the airlines won't let you take orangoutans on planes! What's your response to that one, Mr. Smartypants Richard Dawkins?!
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Paul DeStefano
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Who's gonna start the GG pool on how many posts before this gets volatile and locked?
 
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Matthew Fischer
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Hey, I'm not saying a reasonable argument in favor of intelligent design couldn't be made (by someone other than me). I'm just saying that this is certainly not it.

I am asserting that Kirk Cameron and an orangutan could turn out to be the greatest comedic duo ever. Then again, I'm at home with my eleventh-month-old son with nowhere to go because of the snow. There's not a lot on TV in the middle of the day.
 
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Rik Van Horn
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
What makes you think Kirk can succeed where Jason Alexander failed?
 
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Lyman Hurd
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
mfischer wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying a reasonable argument in favor of intelligent design couldn't be made (by someone other than me).


Okay, I'll say it.
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Hunga Dunga
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Jeff wrote:
Also, I don't know why popular opinion seems to think you can't be Christian and believe in evolution. It's rather insulting. As if the two concepts are mutually exclusive. But as long as it gets evangelicals worked up and buying books, people will continue to push it as a hot-button issue.

My theory is that these folks see it as a slippery slope argument: today we agree the Genesis creation is simply allegory; tomorrow Jesus becomes just some guy...
 
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James Mantell
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
lyman wrote:
mfischer wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying a reasonable argument in favor of intelligent design couldn't be made (by someone other than me).


Okay, I'll say it.


me too.
 
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Chris May
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
JeremiahClayton wrote:
I always shake my head when I see people who believe in Intelligent Design state the lack of evidence in evolutionary theory is proof of Intelligent Design.

I have no problem with Intelligent Design taught in public schools.. just teach it in philosophy class not in science class.





I personally have no problem with the theory of Evolution being taught in the public schools.. just teach it in philosophy class not in science class. I think that goes for evolution and intelligent design. I don't consider either one to be "science" in the strictest sense. Science is repeatable, provable phenomenon. I can't prove to you that God created the universe and you can't prove to me that it evolved from a primordial soup. thus, philosophies not science.
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Karl Schmit
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
I'm really looking forward to the Intelligent Falling vs. Gravity expansion for this.
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Niko Ruf
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Chrisgmay wrote:
Science is repeatable, provable phenomenon. I can't prove to you that God created the universe and you can't prove to me that it evolved from a primordial soup. thus, philosophies not science.


Not quite right. A theory is scientific if it can be falsified in principle. You can never actually "prove" a theory, only find its limits. E.g., Newtonian mechanics are obviously "wrong" because they don't account for relativistic effects. But they are still a valid theory for many applications in physics and engineering.

So far, the theory of evolution has not been shown to be generally false. In fact, there are a lot of observable facts it explains very succinctly:

- the existence of fossils
- mutation and selection in action on a smaller scale (flu virus, anyone?)
- the common biological basis of all life forms on earth
- selective breeding of plants and animals for farming

Biologists actually get verifiable results based on the assumption that the theory of evolution is correct. That makes it scientific.

Intelligent design is not falsifiable, because it will automatically claim that any evidence brought against it was created by god for some unfathomable reason. Thus, it cannot be called scientific.

Sorry for the rant.
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Chris May
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
@ Niko,

You make good points and I don't claim to be a scientist, but doesn't science involve repeatable actions? Maybe "prove" was the wrong word to use, but if an experiment is repeated many times and the results are the same is that not how we get to scientific laws and the like? My claim is simply that many attempts have been made over the last who knows how many years to create life in a laboratory and they have not been sucessful. This is the "prove" part that I am talking about. There is certainly evidence of evolution, but that evidence could easily point to a designer as well if one does indeed exist. All I'm saying is both sides of the argument seem to be using the same evidence in a "scientific" way and calling it science. I don't happen to agree that it is indeed science.

Just my 2 cents though, I'm certainly no expert. Thanks for your insightful comments.
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Hungadunga wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Also, I don't know why popular opinion seems to think you can't be Christian and believe in evolution. It's rather insulting. As if the two concepts are mutually exclusive. But as long as it gets evangelicals worked up and buying books, people will continue to push it as a hot-button issue.

My theory is that these folks see it as a slippery slope argument: today we agree the Genesis creation is simply allegory; tomorrow Jesus becomes just some guy...


Let me comment here.

The nature of Christ was debated and argued for centuries and is essential to Christian theology to work. Genesis got considered to be allegory for centuries, accepted as such, and the big bruhaha over it due to Sola Scriptura Protestant Fundamentalists who, due to a lack of tradition, and church structure, only have their own personal interpretations of the Bible to hang on to. It is different. Christ doesn't slide to become a mere main in Christian circles the way the evolutionary debate does.

I would also argue that if fundamentalists would stop fearing evolutionary theory, and study it, their religion could become stronger.
 
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Niko Ruf wrote:
Chrisgmay wrote:
Science is repeatable, provable phenomenon. I can't prove to you that God created the universe and you can't prove to me that it evolved from a primordial soup. thus, philosophies not science.


Not quite right. A theory is scientific if it can be falsified in principle. You can never actually "prove" a theory, only find its limits. E.g., Newtonian mechanics are obviously "wrong" because they don't account for relativistic effects. But they are still a valid theory for many applications in physics and engineering.

So far, the theory of evolution has not been shown to be generally false. In fact, there are a lot of observable facts it explains very succinctly:

- the existence of fossils
- mutation and selection in action on a smaller scale (flu virus, anyone?)
- the common biological basis of all life forms on earth
- selective breeding of plants and animals for farming

Biologists actually get verifiable results based on the assumption that the theory of evolution is correct. That makes it scientific.

Intelligent design is not falsifiable, because it will automatically claim that any evidence brought against it was created by god for some unfathomable reason. Thus, it cannot be called scientific.

Sorry for the rant.


Can I say this here? The claims that something complex exists and can be engineered (byproduct of intelligent design) is something that exists and is shown, and is known to be true. To disagree with this is, and post why here, is to reduce oneself to an absurd point. Now, to be able to detect such is another issue, and I consider worthy of more study.
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
brownr wrote:
As far as this being a Christian game, I have to disagree. This is an Intelligent Design themed game. Most large mainstream Christian demoninations take no issue with a very old earth or evolution without intelligent design. This includes Roman Catholics (since vatican II), ELCA Lutherans (the largest lutheran group in the US), Methodists, Episcopalians, etc. I went to a catholic gradeschool back in the 70s and was taught evolution - I was a little shocked when I found out there were people who believed the creation story was literal and relatively recent.


What do you mean evolution by "Intelligent design"? You have people in the ID camp who believe in Evolutionary theory, just believe that intelligence was inputed into biological systems to make evolutionary systems work to bring about complex life. The hard core literalism has been a 19th century on phenomenon mainly linked to American Fundamentalism.
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Chris May
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
So, the Jewish people of the Ancient world didn't believe that the creation story was literal? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! The literal understanding of the Creation story is not an invention of modern times. This was not a result of fundamentalism from the Protestant Reformation. I think that to make such an argument would show that one really has no knowledge of the subject at hand.

Instead, the modern idea that is prevalent is attempting to re-write history to prove one's own beliefs. Christians are as guilty of this non-Christians are. I have read many ancient works over the last 7 years as I worked on a B.A. in Biblical Studies and now my Master's degree at a seminary. I have first hand knowledge of the writings of Ancient isrealites, greeks, romans, and others. Based on this knowledge I have to strongly disagree. The literal understanding of the creation story is not new. It may not be "scientific". But it is certainly not new to this age.
 
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Matthew Fischer
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
As this discussion rolls to a close, I wanted to congratulate everyone on a great amount of restraint. I was really only ever interested in the Cameron/Orangutan aspect, but the discussion that developed largely avoided flaming and judgements and actually resembled an open exchange of ideas. It's a shame that all future posts on the controversial subject will be deleted as I think it developed very organically from the original post and that flow would likely not be repeated in the off-topic forum. For me, as long as it doesn't get personal it's ok, but I'm not an admin.
 
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Jim Wickson
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Do you believe that rain comes from the clouds or that rain comes from God? Only atheists believe that rain comes from clouds!
 
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Andy Suttie
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
That's a great link. I think. As an atheist, I thought it was a great piss-take of the moronic nonsense that comes from some religious lobbies.
But it is a piss-take? Isn't it?
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Michael Howe
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Quote:
Science is repeatable, provable phenomenon. I can't prove to you that God created the universe and you can't prove to me that it evolved from a primordial soup. thus, philosophies not science.


First of all, creating the universe and the origins of life are two very different things. Secondly, science does not deal with "provable" phenomena; it deals with laws, theories, and hypotheses that are subject to refutation. If there is no test for falseness, then it is not science. Notice that this is very different from asserting that scientific theories can be proven. If you tell me that God created the universe, there is no conceivable refutation, so it is philosophy and not science. If I tell you that a "big bang" created the obsevable universe, there is conceivable refutation in astronomical observations and high-energy experiments, so it is science. The same applies to intelligent design (not refutable) vs. evolution (conceivably refutable).
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Morgan Dontanville
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
 
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Matt Thrower
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
I think most of us would agree that anyone who still seriously considers there to be a "debate" when it comes to "creationism" is either just stupid or just ignorant. Do we have to give any credence to this sort of slop whatsoever by having a thread about it? Have a good snigger and move on. These sorts of things won't influence anyone but the feebleminded and the already converted anyway.
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Matt Thrower
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
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Wow. Another series of completely uinfounded statements.


Unfounded? I think not. Some of what I've written is clearly polemic but I can see two testable statements in there.

Firstly that people who see a debate here are stupid or ignorant. I would presume that you're not foolish enough to dispute science in it's entirety - after all then you'd have to dispute all the products of engineering that are littering your home improving your life. But to believe in the literal truth of genesis you've got to somehow cut away not just evolution but huge swathes of biology, physics, geology, archaeology - pretty much every science there is. Science all works the same way - it's arrived at by a process of rational deduction, testable hypothesis and peer review. And 99% of scientists (and 100% of secular scientists I'd wager) back evolution because it was arrived at by the same process of the rest of science. It's funny how fundamentalists only ever seem to challenge the bits of science that disagree with the Bible isn't it? So in short, to challenge the scientific truth of evolution you must either be 1) incapable of understanding the science (i.e. stupid) or 2) not in possession of all the evidence behind the science (i.e. ignorant).

Secondly that silly evangelical toys like these only ever convince the feebleminded or the already faithful. Okay, I'm on thinner ground here. But answer me this, who, except those who already have a strong creationist bent, is ever going to buy this thing?

Quote:
What is it about atheists that makes them so insecure?


I'm not insecure. I'm just sick and tired of the nonsense that gets spouted in the name of religion. It undermines valuable science and takes up the precious energy of intelligent scientists who's time could be much better spent than having to fight endless, pointless rearguard actions against those set on spreading ignorance.

Quote:
Who has the closed mind?


Easy! You do! I can back up my belief in evolution with a thousand good quality, verifiable pieces of evidence. What do you have? One book written over two thousand years ago.

If you've not got the closed mind please explain why you picked the Bible as your source for a creation stories, not the Qu'ran or the vast array of Hindu or Buddhist scripture or the oral traditions of the Australian Aborigines.

Quote:
If all you get out of people of faith is a good snigger, it unfortunately says more about you than faith.


Now who's making unfounded statements. What makes me snigger isn't people of faith, but fundamentalists and literalists.
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jack raten
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Re: New Christian Themed Game?
Quote:

Easy! You do! I can back up my belief in evolution with a thousand good quality, verifiable pieces of evidence. What do you have? One book written over two thousand years ago.


That book is enough for me.
The game also looks cheesy to me...
 
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