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Epic Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Blue Card- "Turn" Questions about taking control rss

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Larry Bartels
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Event- Gain control of target champion this turn. Prepare it. It has blitz this turn.

OR

If it your turn,gain control of target champion

I have a few questions-

Since the champion is already in play- does it count as deploying when you take control of it?

when you take control of a champion does it keep its current state (expended/Flip) unless you use option 1

Last night- other players said if even the champion was ready i could not use ability or attack with the champion (Unless option 1)

 
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Alessandro Maggi
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labartels wrote:
Since the champion is already in play- does it count as deploying when you take control of it?

Going by the definition of "delpoying" in the rules I would assume it is.

labartels wrote:
when you take control of a champion does it keep its current state (expended/Flip) unless you use option 1

I think so, but this is just a guess based on the fact that nothing states that gaining control causes any effect on the state of the champion and on the specific wording of option 1 (why specifying that it gets prepared if it happens automatically when gaining control?).

labartels wrote:
Last night- other players said if even the champion was ready i could not use ability or attack with the champion (Unless option 1)

I would have played the same way.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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When you take control of a champion, it stays in the state it was.
A champion is deployed if he was not under your control at the very beginning of your turn.
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Nathan Fritz
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As I understand it, option 1 resets the card and gives it blitz. Option 2 moves the card to your control maintaining any traits that may already exist for the card.

MEANING, if that card was in a deploying state when you stole it, it remains in that state until the "deploying cards are now deployed" step on you next turn. HOWEVER, if it was already in a ready/deployed state on your opponents field, you steal it in that ready/deployed state.

Same goes if it's expended or in the "already blocked" state somehow.

Stealing it and putting it in your battle field does not return it to a deploying state.

So, steal a card that your opponent played two turns ago and didn't use last turn for maximum effect :-)
EDIT: This is incorrect. See Nate's post a few down. Deploying is dependent on how long YOU have controlled it, it is not a characteristic of the card.
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Joe Oppedisano
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So there are two contradictory opinions here about whether the card is considered to be deploying when a player takes control of it.

Personally, I would go with the notion that it is deploying based on two reasons:

1. The first option explicitly gives the champion Blitz so as to indicate that it has an effect that counters its deploying state, and

2. Based on the same effect in MtG, which this game is clearly derivative of, when a player takes control of another player's creature, the creature has summoning sickness unless the effect provides Haste.

It also seems that option 2 allows for permanent control of the champion, while option 1 only takes control for that turn. So having the champion in a deploying state is not such an issue in option 2, because in theory the champion will be under your control in subsequent turns.

I would wonder if there is a difference between a card's 'traits' that would be maintained (such as counters) and what I would call 'status' in terms of flipped, expended or deploying. In the former, traits would carry over with the champion, but in the latter, status would be re-set. Meaning that if the card was expended, flipped, or even non-deployed when control is taken, it would re-set to a ready but deployed state.

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Nathan Davis
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When you gain control of a champion by any means (played from hand, returned from Final Task, put back into play via discard pile text like Soul Hunter, created by an event like Demon Breach), that champion is deploying until the start of your next turn.

Turn (the card) lets you get around that if you use the "steal for one turn" half of the card by giving the champion blitz. Doesn't get around that if you steal for good.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG
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From the rules:

Quote:
A champion is "deploying" until you start your turn with it in play. A deploying champion can’t attack or use [Expend] powers, but it can block.


Like many of the rules in Epic, it's extremely brief and also says exactly what it needs to say. I've been surprised when again and again I see rules questions, and am able to go back to the rule book and find an extremely precise rule which clarifies the question. It's a different kind of rule-reading to, say, reading the rules of Draughts, more of an activity like in mathematics where you construct complex answers by putting together simple answers. I can see why folk want examples. But it's basically all there - you just have the confidence to follow exactly what it says in the rule book.
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Tom McGreevy
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A lot of the questions, I believe, are ooming from ex and current Magic players where the rules are a little different.
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Joe Oppedisano
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greylag wrote:
From the rules:

Quote:
A champion is "deploying" until you start your turn with it in play. A deploying champion can’t attack or use [Expend] powers, but it can block.


Like many of the rules in Epic, it's extremely brief and also says exactly what it needs to say. I've been surprised when again and again I see rules questions, and am able to go back to the rule book and find an extremely precise rule which clarifies the question. It's a different kind of rule-reading to, say, reading the rules of Draughts, more of an activity like in mathematics where you construct complex answers by putting together simple answers. I can see why folk want examples. But it's basically all there - you just have the confidence to follow exactly what it says in the rule book.


First, thanks to Nathan for providing the definitive answer!

Second, I mostly agree with the above sentiment. I say mostly, because I think there are some caveats to this notion that the rules are precise and provide all the answers needed. I base this on a few things:

1. Not everyone has the same experience with other similar styles of games. I think there is some level of assumption about previous experience with CCG or LCG style games. I can confirm that's not the case. In one play of the game my partner (a fairly novice gamer all around) was befuddled by the terms "token" and "counter." They just had no meaning to him and are not really clarified in the rules. It reminds me of when I call the IT person and (s)he starts asking me tech questions assuming I have a degree in computer programming.

2. I vaguely recall a thread indicating that there will be errata or updates to card text in places where adjustments need to be made. This makes it clear that it is not a given that the card effects and rules are perfect as is.

3. Given so many of the similarities between Epic and other games of this ilk, it's easy to make comparisons to how those games make effects clear. In some cases, Epic effects mirror those games and in other places, it diverges (as it should). For some, it's difficult to tell exactly where that difference may lie. For example, Surprise Attack Event says, "You may put a Champion from your hand into play."

What may not be clear to some is whether putting a champion into play is the same as playing a champion and therefore would still require that the cost be paid. If this were a card in MtG, it would most likely include the added clarification, "...without paying its mana cost."

I realize this is fairly easily understood, since it wouldn't make sense to pay a coin and then pay another coin for the Champion (which you probably wouldn't have anyway). I'm just using it as an example of how wording can be vague and where the rules or card text don't differentiate anything.

Language is difficult at the best of times, and the nuances in these types of card games can be quite challenging. The question is, will someone who picks this game up at their LGS be able to comprehend the intent of the rules based on those currently available?

I want to make it clear, however, that this is not an indictment of the game. Just a defense of those who are asking questions and seem to be getting a level of condescension for their inquiries (not necessarily from you greylag!).

Jut my two cents!
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greylag wrote:
From the rules:

Quote:
A champion is "deploying" until you start your turn with it in play. A deploying champion can’t attack or use [Expend] powers, but it can block.


Like many of the rules in Epic, it's extremely brief and also says exactly what it needs to say. I've been surprised when again and again I see rules questions, and am able to go back to the rule book and find an extremely precise rule which clarifies the question. It's a different kind of rule-reading to, say, reading the rules of Draughts, more of an activity like in mathematics where you construct complex answers by putting together simple answers. I can see why folk want examples. But it's basically all there - you just have the confidence to follow exactly what it says in the rule book.


Over 1000 BGG users list the game as owned, plus those who don't list their collection, who have not bothered to update their collection, who (like me) have the game as preordered but not owned until I have cards in hand, those who have tried it at a friends, etc. Based on that, we can estimate that only a few percent of the BGG users who have tried the game have asked questions. It seems like a lot because this is a mega-hit of a game.
 
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t k
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NathanWWG wrote:
When you gain control of a champion by any means (played from hand, returned from Final Task, put back into play via discard pile text like Soul Hunter, created by an event like Demon Breach), that champion is deploying until the start of your next turn.

Turn (the card) lets you get around that if you use the "steal for one turn" half of the card by giving the champion blitz. Doesn't get around that if you steal for good.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG


OK -- can't remember which card came up, but we had assumed (incorrectly) that if the Champion inherently had Blitz, then it would apply when taking control.
 
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Marc Bennett
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knockknock wrote:
NathanWWG wrote:
When you gain control of a champion by any means (played from hand, returned from Final Task, put back into play via discard pile text like Soul Hunter, created by an event like Demon Breach), that champion is deploying until the start of your next turn.

Turn (the card) lets you get around that if you use the "steal for one turn" half of the card by giving the champion blitz. Doesn't get around that if you steal for good.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG


OK -- can't remember which card came up, but we had assumed (incorrectly) that if the Champion inherently had Blitz, then it would apply when taking control.


it doesnt apply when taking control?
 
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From the rulebook:

Quote:
Blitz champions may attack and use [expend] powers while deploying.


So I'd say they're kinda "immune" to deploying status. And hence, when you turn one, who would then be deploying (because they hadn't started the turn in play on your side), they would still be deploying, but they just wouldn't care. So you could attack with them or expend them to use powers.
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NathanWWG wrote:
When you gain control of a champion by any means (played from hand, returned from Final Task, put back into play via discard pile text like Soul Hunter, created by an event like Demon Breach), that champion is deploying until the start of your next turn.

Turn (the card) lets you get around that if you use the "steal for one turn" half of the card by giving the champion blitz. Doesn't get around that if you steal for good.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG


What do you mean by 'half of the card' in your answer? I'm confused about this.
The rules are mostly clear on themselves, but once you start playing, some cards make the rules very open to interpretation.



 
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strimbello wrote:
NathanWWG wrote:
When you gain control of a champion by any means (played from hand, returned from Final Task, put back into play via discard pile text like Soul Hunter, created by an event like Demon Breach), that champion is deploying until the start of your next turn.

Turn (the card) lets you get around that if you use the "steal for one turn" half of the card by giving the champion blitz. Doesn't get around that if you steal for good.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG


What do you mean by 'half of the card' in your answer? I'm confused about this.


The card has a big "or" in the middle. It either lets you take control of a champion for a turn and give it blitz (as Nate said) or it can take control of a champion permanently, but not give it blitz.
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semaj drawoh
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Just a quick question in follow up to thus thread. When I "turn" a champion for 1 turn they gain Blitz. Will this allow me to attack out of turn? I don't think so but the definition of blitz kinda leads to that. Any help is great.
 
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semaj wrote:
Just a quick question in follow up to thus thread. When I "turn" a champion for 1 turn they gain Blitz. Will this allow me to attack out of turn? I don't think so but the definition of blitz kinda leads to that. Any help is great.

You can only attack on your turn (but you can use expend powers on champions, like Hunting Raptors, any time you could play an Event - Blitz will let you do this with champions which are prepared but deploying, conveniently like a champion you've just Turned!)
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semaj drawoh
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Thanks that's what I thought. Great game so far.
 
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Thomas PDX
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NathanWWG wrote:
When you gain control of a champion by any means (played from hand, returned from Final Task, put back into play via discard pile text like Soul Hunter, created by an event like Demon Breach), that champion is deploying until the start of your next turn.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG


Nathan,
One clarification regarding the above:
- You start your turn with a champion in play.
- For whatever reason it is removed from play (say broken).
- You bring back the champion (say using Final Task).
-> Is the champion deploying?

Per your comment above, it sounds like the champion should be deploying.
But per the rule "A champion is "deploying" until you start your turn with it in play". And in this case, you did start your turn with the champion in play suggesting that the champion isn't deploying.

Which is it? Thanks a lot!
 
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tbollaert wrote:

- You start your turn with a champion in play.
- For whatever reason it is removed from play (say broken).
- You bring back the champion (say using Final Task).
-> Is the champion deploying?

Per your comment above, it sounds like the champion should be deploying.
But per the rule "A champion is "deploying" until you start your turn with it in play". And in this case, you did start your turn with the champion in play suggesting that the champion isn't deploying.

It's a different instance of the champion and it wasn't in play at the start of your turn, even if a champion with the same name was. Just the same as, if you'd done an event which gave it +2, then it was broken, it wouldn't still have the +2 when you brought it back with Final Task. So the champion is deploying.
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Thomas PDX
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Thanks for the clarification. I understand the reasoning, yet I don't think it is obvious from the rulebook that playing a card creates a new instance of a champion. One could also assume that each card corresponds to a single instance of a champion.




 
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For me it's clear enough! I see your point - it doesn't actually say anywhere crystal-clear. But the note about deploying is in the "playing a card" section, elsewhere it says that when you play a champion it will be deploying, and just in general it makes sense to me that if a freshly-played champion is deploying, it's unlikely that a dead-and-then-resurrected champion is going to have more initiative than one freshly played!
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