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Subject: Powerstorm: A Light Review of First Impressions rss

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James Davis
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Powerstorm is a customizable but not collectable card game. at first i didnt understand that concept, but upon further reading it is much cleaer. Basically what this means is you get a starter deck which is the same for everyone. The Draft pack which are another name for booster decks are not as random, so you dont have to go chasing down those rare cards. The draft pack will have the same cards for every person who buys it, the random part is the differing amount of each card is actually inside the pack. so you know what your getting but dont know exactly what your getting which adds a bit of variety. There will be completely random packs for blind games. This interesting way of doing things intrigues me i am very put off buyhaving to fork out what could be $1000's on having a great deck. What appeals to me about this system is for casual gamers like myself when it comes to these sorts of games is you only need one starter pack and can have one team of super heroes vs a team of super villians, and buy just buying one draft pack it can be easily split it 2 for the super heroes and super villians. the draft are more like expansions which to me has great appeal.

The theme of the Powerstorm is Super Heroes and Super Villians. The concept of the game is to battle it out just like in the comic books! So far the games creator only have the license to use Top Cow Production characters, and as im not a comic book reader i dont know who any of these chracters are. But i must say that this does not affect the game at all, the game is still very solid. I was curious about whether there would be more characters from other more well known comics, like marvel for example, so i asked the developer. what i have been told is they hope that when this game gets more popular to continue to add more and more characters into the game, which makes me quite happy. i would love to have a match batman vs spiderman, or the thing vs the hulk or magneto vs dr doom. This is has great potential to solve the greatest questions of all time, who is the ultimate superhero or super villian!

The are 2 sets of rules for this game which i have read both. hopefully the admins have allowed the files i added to be avliable soon so you guys can read them your selves. The first set of rules is called the training wheel rules, it is a basic game of powerstorm which allows beginners to learn the game. These rules are also great for the casual gamer. Then there are the comprehensive rules, at first i can quite easily say that i was daunted at the task of reading a 89 page intruction booklet, for me this is one of the biggest instruction book i have seen in the 15 years of my gaming. It took me 2 readings to fully understand the game fully. What i must say is they have thought of everything, as far as i could see there was nothing that made me feel like there were questions to be asked. Both rule sets are very well written and clear. The only problems i had while i was reading, was by my own fault, misreading things is not a good way to play a game the right way

I wont go to far into the actual game in this review because i feel i havent played it enough to truly give the game a fair review when it comes to gameplay.

The game itself is a cross between poker and an rpg. it can be a very easy game to learn but gets more complex the more rules you add to the game. The game itself is played in rounds, so its not continous. This is where the likeness is to poker. At the start of each round you make bets of victory points you want to be up for grabs this round. you make these bets by what cards are currently in your hand so if you have a bad hand you can fold or in this game retreat as not to loose too much. This is the only negative thing in the game to me, it leave me with the impression that there could just be a better way to do it. This aspect does not ruin the gameplay at all, but im not really a fan of gambling or poker so i dont know if i will be the only one with a problem with this aspect. I have been told bythe developers that there will be variants avaliable on the website to create a varied gaming experience.

What really gives this game so much depth is the relations between the cards. There are different battlefields which affect different aspects of the game. Each character has abilites and different statistics which affect which cards a chracter can use in a fight. There is a morality system, good bad and neutral which also affects the cards a chracter can use. its all these little things that really add up, i really cant begin to describe the depth of this game in this short review. After playing a few more times i will write a more comprhensive review on the gameplay aspects. But as i said before they really have thought of everything!

my overall first impressions of this game are very positive. while i dont like the betting involved it is not a big deal, its maybe even nit picking. i really found it hard to find negative points in this game. I think what will make this game better for me is chracters that i actually know but i would highly recommend this game to anyone who likes card games, CCG's or Comics. Give it a go is all i can say!
 
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James Davis
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As far as I understand it, each draft pack contains the same cards, except the number of each cards are different. So when you buy a certain box you know what you are getting just not how many of each you will get.

Im not sure how well the system works, we will have to wait til the game gains strength and stuff is released.
 
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john dingus
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Hey guys. I was on a board with one of the company guys. This is what I gathered. The game is non-collectable meaning if you buy one box and two starters you will get the whole set. It's set up to be a cheap game to get into.

I played this and I liked it a lot, i'll post what I thought of it. This was what I wrote on the other site:


......
Man. So I heard about this Powerstorm game and I was pretty skeptical. I looked at some of the pics and it totally looked like an overpower rip off too. But I tried it this weekend and I'll give you my two cents.

So my buddy likes Darkness and Witchblade, and he bought the two starter decks. The base game is pretty much the same mechanic as Overpower was, but when you get into it it has so much more. You throw attacks at each other, but the thing that I thought made this game kick ass was that it actually paid attention to the fact that it's super heroes. One of the guys above asked why VS. didn't just make this one of there sets, but I hate VS. It's basically like playing UNO with super hero pictures. It could have pictures of Puppies on it and be the exact same game. This game felt like super heroes. Here is the example.

So I bought a few packs and I got like 4 charecters to play with. One was this psychic girl who was bleeding through her eyes. Pretty bad ass looking. And I got a card for her that when a guy charecter tried to attack me, it made the attack on one of his team instead. She was psychically confusing him so he hit his friend. That sold me. All of the cards she came with were like psychic attacks.

The Pros:
Great comic book feel.
The art kicked total ass. Every card except one that I saw was art I would stare at for days.
The game had a TON of rules to learn, but after two games we were flying.
Very Very fun.

The Cons: Not many.

My friend and I had to look up some of the rules. A little heavy. But the rule book had a ton of references and was really easy to use.

I didn't know most of the characters. I thought this would bug me more, but then I thought, you know, I didn't know what a Shivin Dragon was either before I played magic. It's a comic book game, it was pretty easy to get that one girl was like the Flash, one guy had mettle skin and was super strong.

I thought I was just going to see how this game was, but after one day I'm going to pick up a box.

Great job Veritas!
.....

Seriously though, this game is really fun. We tried some new Charecter's and it's neat. I got this guy Kimata that sits in the back and manipulates things. He plays a super villain and plays just like one. I really like how this game plays like a comic book.
 
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Lee Valentine
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bloke wrote:
I'm confused as to how this is non-collectible. So you have preconstructed starters, fine (asuming they are constructed to give you enough copies of every card unlike most precon decks), then you have booster packs which are called draft packs which are all the same. Ok, does that then mean the card pool is really, really small?



No, it means that every box of draft packs should be the same (and even in the same approximate order within the draft box) if the printer did their job right. Two starters plus one box of draft packs gives you one to four copies of every card in the set, and the collation is designed to give you the number of copies of each card that we thought you would need for tournament play (while still being useful for draft play).

The primary reason we made the boosters opaque was so that they could be randomized and drawn out of a box of draft packs for use in draft play (where people don't necessarily want to know what they get). Our draft rules will be up by the end of April.

I spent a full work week of experimenting and redesigning the collation again and again and again so that it would be draftable but so that people buying by the box would feel like they got a good tournament play set.

The only time draft boxes should vary from each other is if the printer made a mistake collating the cards. And if that happens we'll stand by our guarantee and help you patch your set. Our guarantee is printed right on the front of the box.

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How many copies of each card do you need? THe website isn't really very good at explaining this; it says you get one or four (one to four?) copies of every card in a box. Per booster/draft box? So not per draft/booster pack then?!?


The website is very explicit:

"if you buy draft packs by the display box and then buy one of each starter deck then you get one to four copies of every card that is in the set"

One box + 2 starters = 1 to 4 copies of every card that's in the SET.

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Sounds collectible to me; even if you buy a box you still might not get what you need!


You'll get at least one copy of everything with a collation designed to let you build lots of different tournament decks.

No rare chasing + everyone who buys the same amount in the same way gets the same exact cards sounds decidedly non-collectible to us.

As for how many you need? That's a matter of opinion -- some cards you can stack an infinite number of but there are huge mechanical disadvantages of stacking more than 2-3 copies of something. Other cards are limited to one per deck and you typically get one per box of those things. We tried to pick a collation that would let people build tournament caliber decks.


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Even then if you split a box between friends as the site suggests, will you get enough copies of key cards (you know the sort, usually utility non-factional commons) for everyone.


You'll get enough so that each player can build some kind of usable deck if each player has one or two starters to start out with. You won't have a perfect set, no. You will not have as versatile a set as if you had a whole box all to yourself. But you'll have a playable set, and can probably build a number of different tournament caliber decks. You won't be able to build every possible deck, by definition, if you only have half the cards.
 
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Lee Valentine
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jamesdavis wrote:
As far as I understand it, each draft pack contains the same cards, except the number of each cards are different. So when you buy a certain box you know what you are getting just not how many of each you will get.


Actually, for a typical box I can tell you exactly how many copies of each card you'll get. We built the collation down to the last card in the box. It's most definitely designed as a non-collectible game with no chase cards.
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Lee Valentine
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bloke wrote:


Except it isn't. Every one of your answers is vague; you can't tell me exactly what is in every box only what you hope or what should be. That isn't non collectible, far from it.



If you want a pack-by-pack card list I'll happily post one in the next week or two. Unless I open 24,000 packs I can't be sure that the collation is right in each one, but since we've guaranteed it and we stand by it and I've said as much that's hardly a vague answer. We have a guarantee saying as much. As I said earlier in this thread I can tell you exactly how many copies of the card should be there, and if there aren't those cards, will fix it with the consumer. That's one of the best guarantees in the industry that something is non-collectible and that you get a set.

We are very player-oriented and player friendly at Veritas Games Company. We designed the game to appeal to players without costing them a fortune to buy in. I've played CCGs where I don't have a complete set after 3 or 4 boxes. We wanted a one box and two starters game.


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the system only works if you buy by the box, and even then you don't know the amount of each card you will get.


You will as soon as I post a card list. The board game Risk only works as a non-collectible game when you buy by the box. Monopoly only works as a non-collectible game when you buy by the box. If you open up a Monopoly game and 3 different people buy a third of the property cards you've broken what was a complete set by your own conscious actions. That's not the manufacturer's fault and doesn't make Monopoly collectible.



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Well that's the same as every other ccg really, perhaps a bit less intense (really it's just a smaller set).


Actually it's hundreds of cards. It's a fairly large set, to be honest.

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i think you've been grossly disingenuous


Now, that's insulting. I've been completely honest and accurate. There's a guarantee printed on the front of each box of draft packs telling you what you need to do to get a complete set and a reminder on the back of every pack that unless you are drafting the product you are expected to buy by the box to get a complete set. Then there's a description of what we mean on our website. And within a week or two (probably after the GAMA Trade Show) we'll have up a by pack card list to help people come up with strategies for drafting.

If you are interested in the game, then if you order from our store, I'll send you a card list in advance, open up every pack for you to guarantee that what I said is actually in there and hand package it. I'll further offer to you personally that if you buy a box of draft packs and two starter decks and end up disliking the product then you can return the opened product for a full refund, less shipping, if you do so within 30 days.

That's how much we'll stand by our product.

If you are trolling and insulting just to troll rather than to verify that we are being above board, then please desist and go troll somewhere else.

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If i want the cards i have to buy the boxes, thats the same for every ccg.


No, for other CCGs when you buy a box of boosters you have no idea what you can get. With our game you can typically even tell what's in a specific pack in a specific position within the box. With a card list and an unopened box of draft packs in front of you, the card list is like a "road map" to the box. There's no rare chasing even for the largish set that we have. I _think_ it's two hundred eighty eight cards (don't have the list in front of me).

If that's not good enough for you, then go find someone else to insult and move along.

If it is, then welcome aboard, and we hope you enjoy the game.
 
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Lee Valentine
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bloke wrote:

VS is NOTHING like UNO!!!

i have absolutely no idea how you get away with a statement like that.




I'm assuming that he's implying that it doesn't have a superhero feel to it. It feels like you summon characters one at a time. The Justice League doesn't show up to fight the Legion of Doom. Batman shows up. And then Superman shows up. And then Wonder Woman shows up. And then Wonder Woman leaves and another copy of Wonder Woman shows up.

The Vs. System is a good game, but it's close to Magic the Gathering with a refined resource mechanic and a positional blocking mechanic. It's designed as a generic house system to which intellectual properties can be attached. I don't think that's a secret. I think that was intentional.

Powerstorm was designed start to finish as a superhero/action game, and it'd probably feel out of place if you slapped a fantasy license on it or science fiction license on it instead of superheroes. A lot of the rules wouldn't "feel" right in that circumstance.

Uno is a good game. Vs. is a good game.

Uno has had versions that have Spider-Man on it:

http://www.amazon.com/Sababa-Toys-506-Spider%252dMan-UNO/dp/...

But I think that most people wouldn't say that Uno "feels" more like a superhero fight just 'cause Spider-Man's picture is on it. Similarly I think the original poster was implying that the Vs. System doesn't "feel" like a superhero fight game just because it has superhero art on the cards.

I don't think it was an attack on the quality of the game (I personally think the Vs. System and Uno are fine games and I've played each and own each). I think it was a comment as to how well the game simulates the genre it is associated with.

Inquest magazine, for example, has said that Powerstorm has more "chrome" than the Vs. System. The Ogre Cave Audio report said that we have a great "superhero feel". Powerstorm was designed to be nothing but a superhero game, so it's not surprising that it does that well. A lot of Powerstorm's rules could be ported to other systems, but a lot of rules just exist to emulate the comic book genre.
 
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Lee Valentine
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bloke wrote:
This game requires you to have multiples of each card in order to be effective and so you will need to buy enough of the cards to get them. I see no difference in buying boxes of this as opposed to boxes of any other ccg.


Typically what you need to be tournament competitive is one box of draft packs and one of each starter. If you can't see the difference between a box which contains random contents and a box which contains cards in a specific sequence in specific quantities, then I can't help you.

http://www.veritasgames.net/ps/collation.html



Quote:
What you are perhaps meaning is non-random, though that remains to be seen.


Non-random pretty much equals non-collectible. Even if I need 3 pieces of plywood for a project, when the local hardware store sells them and prices them by the piece, it's not collectible.

When I buy a "build your own entertainment kit" it's not collectible just because there are more screws than there are boards.

"Collectible" to me means "random" and "some cards have substantially higher than normal value in the secondary market due to randomness".

I don't view non-random wargames being "collectible" if the figures are individually packaged in a non-random fashion, even if I'm going to want three of some and one of another. Most industry trade publications tend to categorize Heroclix as a "collectible miniatures games" and typical Warhammer figures as "non-collectible" even if players spend a lot of money to play each and need to amass a pool of figures to play each game effectively.

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This means that shops will be out of stock of boosters 1-10 but will never shift boosters 11-20 (every ccg set ever has about 40% redundancy within the cards; there are always cards that just don't get used/suck).


I think that our cards don't suck and we've tried to make every one of them usable in certain deck archetypes.

If you don't want to get stuck buying in a random fashion the solution is simple. Tell the clerk, "I'd like you to order me a sealed box of draft packs so that I can buy by the box". I have NEVER EVER heard of a game store that won't special order a box of something if you want the whole box.

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Ultimately i think your methodology is flawed, even if your intention is noble.


My intention is that you tell the store clerk that you want to buy an entire SEALED box and you do UNLESS you are just dabbling with the game or unless you are specifically drafting.

Our plan was a smaller number of players buying by the box instead of a larger number of players buying by the pack (except for draft play where the method involves buying by the pack).

My intention is printed on the front of the Draft Box:

"Guaranteed to Get a Set: 1 of each Starter plus a SEALED box of Draft Packs gets you a Complete Set".

My intention is printed on the front of our package. The product fulfills my intention. And if the printer has ever made an error then we're going to stand by our product and help players out. That means my methodology can accomplish my intent.

Now, if people are freaked out by the fact that you can buy by the pack if you want to for a reason other than draft play, and they equate that to collectible, then my methodology IS flawed. Not because it can't accomplish what I intend if you do what is printed on the front of the package in big letters, but because if enough people have the same fears you do then the fact that we haven't gauged the psychographics of the audience well then it could sink us even if the methodology is otherwise sound logically.

You praised Blue Moon and Blue Moon is nominally no more or less non-random that Powerstorm in its collation when you buy by the shrink wrapped package.

Boxes of twinkies aren't collectible just because each twinkie in the cardboard box may be individually shrink wrapped.

Quote:

Even though it might be a good game, i just find all this far too confusing and i don't like the disingenuous nature of your ad copy. I'm not going to be investing in this game at all I'm afraid; it will cost me just the same as VS, for example, or any other ccg


How you are confused is beyond me. I just put up the typical collation today because you claimed you couldn't figure it out.

Disingenuous is a very hostile word. It typically implies that a person is knowingly not being candid or is miscategorizing something in a crafty fashion. It implies intentional disception generally, and I take great umbrage at the categorization.

As for the cost being equal to other card games, that's a joke. Clearly you don't understand the cost model involved and its impact on the secondary market.

Even if someone sells singles or sets I'm guessing that they aren't ever going to cost very much typically because the collation guarantees sets in a pretty good distribution for tournament play.

We are going to be selling sub-sets of the cards online pretty soon for people who want to get into the game piecemeal, and the only reason we'll be up-pricing the cards is due to the physical labor of opening packs and dividing them into packaged subsets of the cards.

We're doing everything we can think of to give people routes to get into the game without chasing down cards. If people are unwilling to buy from our store (to get specific subsets) and are unwilling to buy by the box and are unwilling to buy boxes with friends and split them to divvy up what each player wants, then you are right, I don't have any methodology to handle players like that. Those players probably shouldn't be playing a customizable card game of any form because they are going to be even more upset when faced with a different game where they are chasing down cards at random.

And as for you, you are making hugely speculative claims about a game which you probably haven't even thoroughly read the rulebook for (based on your claims of not understanding how many of each card you need to play). Now, if people who do play the game look at the collation and start saying "you blew it Veritas Games Company, 'cause I still need 3 boxes of draft packs to do well in a tournament" then I'll take those comments seriously.

Since I can build a lot of highly effective decks out of two starters and a box of draft packs, I'm personally not too concerned that the collation may be suboptimal. I think it's pretty good for a game to be both draftable and non-random, which were our two goals.
 
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Lee Valentine
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bloke wrote:
I have no idea how the game plays, nor have i made any attempts to discuss gameplay. Thats not the purpose of these posts.


You are making assumptions about rules even in this post about how many cards you will need to play our game with. To make such statements in an informed fashion requires knowledge of the rules which you haven't even bothered to crack open. You don't understand the game's concepts (which has MUCH different deck building rules than any game currently on the market), and you are speculating wildly about how effective our collation is for tournament play with no knowledge of the rules of the game.

You are de facto making claims which an informed party would realize are entirely tied to the rules of the game.

We have worked hard to make a collation which we think is very tournament competitive and fairly flexible given our specific game rules and tournament floor rules. The tournament floor rules will be online around the time of the GAMA Trade Show.

Further, by admitting that you haven't reviewed the game or its rules in any way and implying that you have no intention to do so, you've effectively just threadjacked a discussion which started about rulebook quality with promises of future posts reviewing gameplay. You're adding neither of those to the discussion.


Quote:
If the game proves tournament viable (and if it doesn't this point is moot) then what you will need is 4 of every card (or whatever the maximum in the game is, I don't know. I assume 4 since that's what your advertising the contents of a box as).


Again, you are speculating wildly without reading the rules of the game. Some cards have printed limits of 1, 2, or 3. Some have an infinite stacking limit. But the game has a mechanic forcing you to discard all Matching cards from your hand, so stacking more than 1 copy of a card has incrementally detrimental effects on the probability of you having a full hand. The game is played one hand at a time (like Poker), so having to discard cards is very painful.

Furthermore, since many cards are tied to characters (and often can't be played after the characters get knocked out) the normal practical (rather than rules limited) per character stacking limit per character is 4 to 7 cards. Each character has about 6 different cards. You are assuming you need 24 cards per character plus 4 copies of the character card. That's just a false assumption for the most part. You want one to two copies of each card the character has (depending on the stacking limits).

There are four copies of some cards in the set because some cards are duplicated in either two starter decks or in one starter deck and the draft packs, artifically increasing some cards beyond the level you will typically use in a single deck. In recent memory I can't even recall putting more than 3 copies of anything in a deck, and most cards I only want one or two copies of in a single deck.

Again, you know nothing at all about the game and are speculating wildly. For really exotic decks I sometimes need one or two extra copies of cards, but I can build lots of perfectly tournament viable decks out of two starter decks and one box of draft packs.


Quote:
This is the same for any ccg.


Again, wild speculation. And I believe that it's wrong. Since some of our cards have printed limits right on them limiting them to 1 or 2 per deck, having 4 copies of those cards just lets you build multiple decks, it doesn't help you build a better single deck.

Having multiple boxes of draft packs will let you build more exotic decks that may better express your personal preference, but they shouldn't be any more powerful, just different. The game's mechanics attack the concept of stacking multiple copies of a card so stacking 4 of a card is more than likely going to end up producing 2-3 hands with that card and one hand where you had to play down a full card because you got greedy and stacked too many copies of the card.

We picked a logical quantity of cards per character that we thought people would want and built it into our collation.


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Of course you can play with less, but that's not how it will be since tourney players will need that edge and that only comes from owning enough cards.


Enough cards should be two starters and a box of draft packs.

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I just don't understand what you are trying to achieve.


That's because you are too busy nay-saying to actually read the rulebook.


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And if all people need is one box thusly, this game just won't make money. That's the irony.


We figure rebuy will come from draft play (rules coming out soon), since the format is fun.


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But a complete set is not enough to play the game.


Yes it is. Please keep your speculating to yourself until you:

a) have read the rules,
b) have played the game, and
c) have analyzed the effects of our actual collation

Your wild speculations are uninformed, off target, and just plain wrong.

Quote:
Are you saying that your RRP is lower than other ccg's because it isn't according to the relaease info i've seen. Esdevium Games list it as the same price as VS. So it will cost the same to buy a box of boosters. THis is why i say your marketing copy is disngenuous.


No, I didn't say that our per box price tag is cheaper. I said that the total cost you need to spend to be competitive is much less.

With Powerstorm you have all the cards you need to play well in a tournament after two starters and one box of draft packs which is generally not been true of the Vs. System, where you need to buy multiple boxes of boosters to be effective, because powerful cards are frequently rare and occur less than one per box or only once per box and the game doesn't punish you in the way Powerstorm does for stacking 4 copies of something. Vs. System has different stacking rules and different rules of play, meaning that your needs as a player are different than they are as a Powerstorm player.

By the way, price point has NOTHING to do with collectible or non-collectible. I've seen role-playing products and board game products in the $50-$100 range which are fully non-collectible. I've seen at least two RPG products in that price range and a bunch of board games in that price range recently. Ptolus (by Monte Cook) is a $120.00 RPG book. It's definitely non-collectible.

What we are saying is absolutely clear. Just about every usage of the term "non-collectible" on our website is linked to an explanation, including the first or second line of text on our home page. We have our standard collation online and our rules. We have no secrets. We mean what we say, not what you prefer we said. And what we say is explained in detail on our website.

You know nothing about the game's rules and stacking requirements and you are making uninformed speculations about the game. I've already offered you personally a money back guarantee if you didn't like the game and offered to personally check that you had a full set of cards according to our standard collation.

You haven't taken me up on that, so you complaints are falling entirely on deaf ears and I take you to be trolling at this point rather than attempting to engage in useful debate or trying to understand something which is eluding you.


Heck, earlier this week I even told a player who bought 10 packs on our website that if he didn't mind receiving open packs, if he bought 14 more later I'd make sure that he got the 14 he was missing. We are working hard to make sure that everyone who wants a playset gets one.

Quote:
There are lots of ggod ccg's out there and all of them i won't touch anymore because i simply cannot afford to and dont want to prirotise my limited income on chasing cards like i did when i was a kid collecting bubblegum sticks and movie trading cards.


Again, since in a few weeks our online store is going to have specific subsets of a box for sale that you will be able to use to buy cards in quantities less than a box, your complaints are falling on deaf ears.

There is no card chasing by the box. There will be no card chasing when people are able to buy specific known groups of cards from our store in a couple of weeks.

The game isn't intended to be random, and by the end of the month the decks will probably even be available for free download in electronic form from RPGNOW if I have time to reformat the decks for quick download in PDF format by then.

The only people it matters to about whether the collation is random or not are people trying to get a complete set of cards. If you can't afford a complete playset of cards (and you said you can't), then your primary complaint is that our game is too expensive for you. And if it is, that may be a valid complaint, but it's a very different complaint than one claiming that we intentionally are misleading people about the collectibility and chase value of our game.

While we feel for your pain if you can't afford to play games out of your price range, we are a business and while we intend to give a lot of decks away for free (we've already given away around 2000 decks for free), we are out to make money ultimately.

I would recommend that you should buy two starter decks for $9.95 and play for fun instead of playing in tournaments. The starter decks were engineered to have a lot of replay value, particularly when you use them with the comprehensive rulebook.

People somehow seem to forget that starter decks of games often represent fully playable games that are fairly inexpensive and become obsessed with owning every card, forgetting that the entry point to the game is probably the best place to decide whether you even like the game or not.

I can't offer you any more than to guarantee you a full playset of cards at a specific price, other than the ability to try the game for free at RPGNOW when we get it uploaded there, or to give you a free deck or two of the game if you can pass our judge's tests. If you are interested in that, then you aren't interested in discussing:

a) the quality of the rulebook; or
b) the quality of the gameplay

Since that's what this thread is nominally about, I'd very much appreciate it if you feel the need to speak out more on this subject that you start a new thread, copy your posts over there, delete them from here, and let people who are actually interested in rulebook contents and the quality of gameplay have a venue to discuss such matters. If you start a new thread and delete your posts from here and move them over there then I'll do the same, so that people with questions about James' actual review can post them without getting them lost in the current off-topic posts.
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bloke wrote:
Even if you released a relatively smaller sized box and sold the game that way so that each box had 1x every card, it would still be collectable!


At least some members of the Industry press clearly don't agree with your categorization.

What you just claimed is like saying that Warhammer is a "Collectible Miniatures Games" just because orcs are sold one per pack and I might want 30 of them. The industry doesn't categorize things like that. In industry awards you wouldn't see a typical warhammer figurine categorized as being part of a "Collectible Miniatures Game".

I just opened up Comics and Games Retailer and Warhammer miniatures are listed under "Miniatures Games" and Hero Clix is listed under "COLLECTIBLE Miniatures Games".

Why? Because the industry leaders decided long ago that if something is random and you can't guarantee what you'll get then it's "Collectible". And if you have no idea what you are getting at all then it's "Non-Collectible".

Our contention is that when you buy it by the box our game is Non-Collectible. It contains a complete, non-random set of cards.

Knightmare Chess by Steve Jackson games was a customizable game that's an add-on to normal chess. You could buy multiple copies of the game to custom build a Knightmare Chess deck. If memory serves, the industry didn't put it up for an award as the best new "Collectible" card game. It was considered non-collectible because it was non-random and there were no obvious chase cards. If you wanted a set you could just walk in and buy it and know the contents of the package.

Phil Foglio's Brawl game is theoretically customizable by buying multiple copies of the same deck and mixing them together. So are all the Hero Card Games. All of them allow you to buy multiple decks and stack together things in multiple copies. You won't find Brawl or Hero Card in any industry awards under the "Collectible Card Game" categories.

We've done that, only we've shrinkwrapped individual sub-units so that if you WANT TO buy it as less than a set (for draft play, for example), then you can.

I think when Diamond put us in Previews we were in the Card Games section, not the Collectible Card Games section (I can't remember, it's been a while).



bloke wrote:
You've also have a number of opportunities to actually tell me how many copies you would need, and haven't. That's just sad.


No, I've said about half a dozen times that I thought players would need one sealed box of draft packs and two starters.

I've posted the names and quantities of cards that includes to our website.

I've noted that the games rules ALLOW you to stack 1 of some cards, 2 of others, and infinite number of others. That does not imply that you NEED an infinite number of copies of infinite stack cards to play.

Quote:
However I tried reading through the rulebook to find the answer and all i could no straight answer amidst 67 pages of rules (that's quite a lot for a new game from an unknown company


Deck building is its own entire chapter in the comprehensive rulebook running from pages 67-71 of version 1.11 of the rules, so I don't know how you missed this. The deck stacking restrictions vary by card type, so you actually have to read up on each card type to see how deck stacking works.

If you are trying to find a single line that says "You can play with 4 copies of any given card", no such rule exists. And I've already told you as much, but you didn't believe me. As I've said time and again, that's not the way the game works and your assumptions are inadequate to analyze this game, because your assumptions are faulty.

Regarding the rulebook length, if you exclude the indexing and redundant "quick reference" materials the comprehensive rulebook has a shorter word count than the Vs. System Comprehensive Rulebook.

I can't argue whether it's wise for a new company to do this, but I can say that it's certainly not unheard of for a successful superhero card game to have a comprehensive rulebook as long as ours. Whether we can hang around in the market with the Top Cow license instead of the Marvel/DC licensing pair remains to be seen.



Quote:
Perhaps there isn't a simple answer to that question; perhaps your game does something so very different that there is no simple answer at all.


It varies from card class to card class and from card to card within the class. I've already noted this. You refuse to believe it. Some cards are one per deck. Some two per deck. Some infinite per deck, etc. Sometimes playing card A prohibits you from playing card B.

Instead of fighting with added-on banned and restricted lists later (like most games that have a single stacking restriction), our deck building rules are the single most complex part of the game. They contain a number of balance and counter-balance measures to keep things from getting out of control. Are they perfect? No. But they offer us greater control over play balance than "no more than 4 of any card".

Stacking restrictions are the de jure rules limit. Matching rules create a very different practical restriction, and we've built our collation to what we thought people would practically want to play and would need to be competitive.

Quote:
Regarding speculation: you are saying that the box of boosters will give no more than at least one of every card in the set


I have no idea how to reply to this. I don't know what "no more than at least one" even means. "No more than" implies less than or equal to and "at least one" implies greater than or equal to.

Quote:
You are also saying that, although it will be possible to purchase specific boosters to get what you want because they will be numbered,


No, I NEVER said the draft packs were numbered. There are 24 distinct types of packs in the game, and one of each per box of draft packs. Typically each copy of a given pack is in the exact same position in each box.

Quote:
you are not offering the same frequency for each card per box.


Because the game doesn't require it, and in some cases, doesn't even allow it. You CANNOT play more than one copy of Impact's "Pulverize" even if you own 30. You COULD play 60 level 6 Combat Cards, but you'd be a fool to do so, since you'd end up discarding 7 out 8 cards each hand.

Quote:
I submit that this will be a retailers nightmare, no matter how well intentioned.


When purchased by the pack it is no harder to see than a collectible card game except that the set is contained in one box so the perceived rarity is much less than games that spread some rares out so that they are available in only one copy of a given card per 3 or 4 boxes.

When it is purchased by the box it is decidedly non-random (even in it's sequence in the box). Our guarantee on the outside of the box implies that it is non-collectible by the box, and it is. It is non-random by the box down to the position of individual cards. And the collation is designed to let people who invest $109.00 on the game to be:

a) tournament competitive; and
b) be able to build a wide variety of decks

You can accomplish "a" with many fewer cards, but your flexibility in what you can stack will be more limited (to like only Heroes or only Villains).
Quote:
I am not motivated to buy this game as a tournament player; if i wanted to compete at ccg's what is your game going to offer that games like magic and vs dont.


Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you certainly appear like you are not motivated to buy this game as a non-tournament player either.

Nevertheless, it is a fair question.

Our pros: Cheaper buy-in to be competitive and get a full set of cards. Better superhero feel than Vs. Top Cow characters and art.

Quote:
I'm not here to be polite (and let's be fair i'm not insulting or abusing you so lets not be silly);


Actually by calling me and my company "disingenuous" you ARE being insulting. "Disingenuous implies" someone who is crafty (i.e., "sneaky", "deceptive" or intentionally misleading). You are effectively calling me a sneaky liar out to mislead people and/or a hypocrite. That's definitely a direct insult targeting my personal character and quality as an individual or alternately it is targeting our entire company.

Quote:
I'm an average, prospective customer and ccg player who wants to understand your product.


You don't realistically strike me as a potential customer. Though I could be wrong.

I've given you offers of everything down to a money back guarantee and you are still ranting and not offering to buy. I've mentioned that the game is going to be freely downloadable soon, and you didn't say, "OK, I'll wait and see". We offer free decks to judges, and you didn't try out even the basic test. You've pretty much said you have no desire to read our rulebook and that you've given up trying. You've said that to buy a full play set is outside of your price range and you didn't even seem to consider my comment that two starters are only $9.95 each. I've offered you support a ton of different ways. By all appearances you don't want offers to help you get into the game. You want to insult and argue.

Almost nobody on the internet is going to give you a money back guarantee on whether or not you'll like the game. We offered you that. You didn't take me up on that. That strongly implies that you are not a prospective customer of our products.

Quote:
If youre fine with that, thats great.


I'm totally fine with not having sold you on the game for one reason, not all games are for all people. And you seem so unlikely to play the game that it's probably not worth our mutual sanity to attempt to convert from your current skepticism to an active fan of the game.

Quote:
So the question is: does a box give you (that's one player by the way, nevermind splitting a box) all the copies of a card you will ever need?


Need? Who knows, since somebody might feel the insatiable "need" to do something to guarantee him an auto-loss like stacking 60 copies of the same card and being forced to discard all but one of his cards each hand.

If by "need" you mean "need to be competitive in tournaments and have a variety of cards to build a lot of fun decks" then yes, two starters and one box of draft packs is all you nominally need for most decks you'll want to build.

Quote:
If the answer is now yes then you should have said that to begin with and you should have made that clear in your ad copy (since it would look a damn site more appealing just to say "one box gets you all the copies you will ever need", or whatever).


Listen, I've tried to tell you the entire thread that it's probably all you are minimally likely to need for competitive tournament play. You didn't believe me then, and you aren't likely to believe me now. You are hellbent on the belief that since the a draft box and two starters contains four copies of a 7 Bashing Combat Card that you MUST NEED 4 copies of every other card to be competitive. Which is an incorrect assumption. You don't even NEED 4 copies of a 7 Bashing Combat Card. The only reason two starters and a box of draft packs has 4 of them, is that we thought each deck of a very specific kind needed 2 and there are two decks of that general variety that we produced.

You could probably get by with three 7 Bashing Combat Cards or 2 of them and a 7 Resistance Combat Card. So even the cards you can play multiples of you probably don't want lots of or need them unless you are planning on keeping a bunch of decks stacked at one time that use the same cards.

Quote:
So now there are likely to be cards you need more than 4 of (to be fair, not a new thing as SWCCG had no upper limit)?


No, you'd be taking a serious risk to ever play more than 1 or 2 copies of most cards that are tied to a specific character. And your probably foolhardy if you stack more than 7 TOTAL cards with a character's name on them.

Quote:
But you won't even get two of every card in a box.


So? You are disallowed from playing with more than one copy of some cards.

And with a character like Buzzcut, you are probably best off playing one of each of his cards given the character's specific design structure. You could buy more boxes to play with 2 or even 3 copies of some of those cards, but you certainly don't need to do that to be competitive. You do something like that because you WANT to not because you NEED to, because playing multiple copies of a card has built in disadvantages.

Quote:
Or do you think that everyone must spend enough money to buy every card, learn the game inside out before they are entitled to comment, because that ain't going to happen.


No. I don't believe that. However, I do believe that to be taken seriously you have to start a conversation out some other way than by insulting the integrity of a publisher. I think anyone who isn't insulting and who is actually interested in asking informative questions should be encouraged to ask away. You, by contrast, came in as a nay-sayer and started out with a direct personal insult. We picked "Non-Collectible" because in most industry trade publications and awards categories it's meant as "non-random". Since we're in this industry, we adopted the usages popular within industry trade sources. Go fight with the industry for adopting the usages, not us.

We mean what we say and say what we mean. Since we immediately define for players and retailers what we mean by "customizable, not collectible" obviously on our website, then nobody can really be "taken in" inadvertently by a misunderstanding. We are available for answering questions, promptly. Someone who is disingenuous generally has an intent to be crafty or is otherwise innately a hypocrite who is self-deluded.


Quote:
If you think i'm going to buy a box of powerstorm boosters just to prove a point you are very mistaken.


No, I said specifically I thought you should by starters and I implied that trying the game for free was an option for you too.


Quote:
i didn't say you had secrets, i'm saying that your method is not non-colletable, it is functinally no different than every other ccg out there right now.


Except in the odd instance where the printer might have screwed up our collation, I can open a box of draft packs, go to the sixth one down on the left, and tell you what the 4th card in the pack is before I open it. That's how non-random it is. If you can do that with Magic and Vs. then you have X-Ray vision or precognition. And if you don't see the functional difference there, then I can't really be any clearer.

Quote:
If it were non collectable it would be a factory set (which ive seen for a couple of games in the past) with enough copies of every card to play.


Which is what we have created. However, by your implications, a play set is "the maximum you are legally allowed to stack" and in Powerstorm, for some cards, that's infinity. So by definition we can never produce a "non-collectible playset" by your standards. We picked our playset collation levels because our rules have a counterbalance in them (Matching) to stop people from wanting to stack an infinite number of copies of a card, and we know that it's not very effective.

We've tested the game, figured out what's pretty much the optimum "fuel to air" ratio for the least amount of cash and produced the cards to that collation. It is a perfect collation? No. It it the dead level best set collation we could come up with for the price? Yes.

Could a player want more cards? Yes, particularly if he wants to keep 3 or 4 decks stacked at once. Could he come up with some unusual deck that to function in the exact manner that he wants requires 4 copies of something that we gave him 2 of? Sure, but it will come with Match disadvantages. Would that deck be much better than what he could build with what comes in 2 starter decks and one box of draft packs? Probably not. Different, but probably not better.

We were concerned with people buying a box being on fairly equal footing as people owning 3 boxes of draft packs. So we tuned the cards and collation to do our damndest to make that happen

If you are serious about checking out the game, then do so. There's a printable demo online, a Flash tutorial will be up in a couple of weeks, and within 3 or 4 weeks the game will be free on RPGNOW.com.
 
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bloke wrote:


No what you have done is argued that powerstorm is non-collectable on the basis that if you buy enough product you will have all the cards you need.


No, what I've done is argue that it's non-collectible on the basis that it's non-random since that's what a number of industry awards and industry press sources use as the defining trait of what makes a collectible vs. non-collectible product.

Quote:
A box alone will not garauntee me enough for a compelte playset - especially in a game that seems to have much more complex deckbuilding structures.


Again, by your implied definition we would have to release an infinitely large set of cards to be non-collectible because you can stack an infinite number of copies of certain cards. Whatever.

Quote:
you cannot dictate to players what they NEED.


Now you are just being argumentative. Last post you asked me what players will need. You asked for my position. I told you my position, and now I'm dictating terms. You are just incredible, man. I've never seen someone arguing just to hear themselves argue like you.

Quote:
nor does your ad copy say thats what you get. Therefore you will need to collect the cards.


Anyone visiting our website will find out exactly what they can get. I'm truly sorry that our ad copy is not hundreds of lines long so that it can list a complete collation.

Quote:
You then say that eachbox will have exactly the same collation and frequency; this means that selling this game will be damn hard because of the economy of loss involved; if i only need 2 copies of card 1 after buying my box i then won't need the rest from my second box. The alternative is to hunt down booster 1 which has card 1 in it and buy enough boosters to get those cards leaving the rest of the pack to be useless to me.


Or you could buy one box of draft packs, two starter decks, and play that way, since that's all you probably need to be both competitive and reasonably versatile.

Quote:
'type'? what on earth does that mean? Different art? Different print?


There are 24 distinct packs that have at least one unique card per pack, and up to 14 unique cards. I don't have a list of the number of unique cards per pack.


Quote:
What good will position be when the retailer mixes them up after selling a few packs here and there to little JOhnny and his mates (especially if Little Johnny rummages around and picks the pack HE wants for himself).


I can't speak for your retailer. I can speak for my company, since we'll be offering specific card groupings on sale from our website soon, and since I told you earlier in this thread that we even offered to fill out somebody's set personally if they bought more packs from our webstore (they bought 10 packs initially, and if they want a matching set I told them that if they later bought 14 more packs I'd personally make sure that they got a set), it should be clear that sales through us can be negotiated to guarantee yourself a full set, even if you buy cards in multiple batches over time.

You can also buy a full set by buying a whole box. If you never buy enough cards to afford to buy a whole box then your whole issue about getting a full set is moot -- you won't get one if you don't buy at least 24 packs.

We anticipate fully that most people will have a friend to play with, each will buy one starter deck. Then if they want to play, they'll each buy one more starter deck and will split a box. If they like the game they'll buy another box and split it again to get 2 complete sets.

That's how we expected players to get into the game. And we offer plenty of alternatives. Your claims that you can't get a complete set are falling on deaf ears. Within a few weeks there will be 2 or 3 different ways to get a complete set from us (either all at once or piecemeal over time).

Quote:
What efforts are you doing to instruct retailers on how to sell this and how this collectible.non-collectible scheme works?


Um, we are travelling to major trade shows like Games Expo and GAMA Trade Show and talking to them about it start to finish about how to sell the product. We have a set of retailer specific podcasts on our website on how to demo and sell the product at the counter. Particularly in all phone, email, and face to face communications of any length we actually caution retailers to NOT sell the game like a collectible card game, to warn people about how the set collation works, and to encourage them to sell the product by the box except for draft players.

Further, stamped right on the front of every box of draft packs and on the back of every draft box is a note telling people how to get a complete set.

There's even a letter included in EVERY box of draft packs telling people about the collation and encouraging box level sales.

Thus any retailer who wants to know about what we mean by "customizable, not collectible" can find out fairly trivially. We can't control whether they read what we send them, visit our website, or listen to us when we offer sales advice at trade shows. But we're busting our butts to make sure that anyone who wants to understand our collation and sales strategies can share in them.



Quote:
So you are now saying that the box DOES contain enough of every card i need to play, whether it be 1 or 100?


I'm not just saying it now. I've been saying it the whole thread. One sealed box of draft packs plus two starter decks should give you at least one of every card in the set and enough duplicate copies of some cards to make you tournament competitive and to give you some deck stacking versatility.

That's what we're claiming. That's pretty much all we're claiming.

Quote:
All they have to work on is this non-collecatable spiel which makes vague claims as to the frequency of cards in the set. Something you cannot adequately explain!


Actually I can adequately explain it and have. Two starter decks plus one box of draft packs gives you the collation I have detailed on our website. The collation is enough to do what I've described above numerous times already. No collation will be enough to allow you to stack every possible deck since our deck stacking limit for some cards is theoretically infinite, so we defined a "playset" as "at least one of every card and enough duplicates of some to be tournament competitive and stack a wide variety of decks".

That's what the collation does. That's what we intended. That's what
we mean by non-collectible.

If you are petitioning us to change our ad copy or our website we aren't going to call the game collectible because you think it ought to be. Case closed.

Quote:
You seem to be expecting people like me to just buy into this as if it will be a surefire hit.


No, I'm offering a game for sale. And I fully expect that you and people as suspicious as you will NEVER try our game. I'm not seriously attempting to sell the game to you personally, and if you feel otherwise, then you don't understand my intentions.

Quote:
Im not wasting my money on a ccg again not wihtout some serious cast iron garauntees.


Please. I gave you an absolute guarantee as to what you'd get and an absolute money back guarantee if you returned the opened product because you were unsatisfied with game play. No guarantee will make you happy with our product.

Quote:
I am quite entitled to use a word like disngenuous which is a perfectly non-offensive, non-abusive non-insulting word to describe something i feel is thus.


"Disingenous" in the dictionaries I looked it up in said "crafty" or "hypocritically false". It is most definitely an offensive and abusive term in this context.


Quote:
I haven't made any claims to the game at all, despite your continued attempts to draw me into it.


Sir, for the record, I've made no attempts that I realistically thought would draw you into it. I made reasonable offers to you that you would get a playset if you wanted one. I did this for one reason. The offers I made you were so reasonable that any reasonable third party reading this thread would realize that someone who wanted to try the game would try the game. We're even giving away free copies of the game. And the game will be free in downloadble form on RPGNOW.Com within a few weeks. I fully anticipated when I made you the offers that you would turn me down. I expected you to be contrary and you proved me correct. I never once, not once, since the beginning of this thread have believed for a nano-second that you would ever play our game. I still don't.

So don't think of this is a hard sell. I'm just trying to emphasize for the benefit of others how much you are NOT a prospective player inquiring about the product but are simply arguing to argue.

Quote:
You obviously have a problem with that since you cannot understand how that might affect my decision to purchase into a new ccg. Still it's your loss, not mine. There are plenty of other games on the market.


I can understand that if I called the game "collectible" you still wouldn't buy it because you've said that you don't want to buy any ccg be it a "customizable card game" or a "collectible card game". Therefore, no matter how I advertise the game you are not going to try it. I'm not losing sleep over this. A person who wouldn't buy our game whether or not it's advertised as collectible doesn't concern me, because, by definition, he's not a member of our target market.

Quote:
non random isn't non-collectible.


First, you asked how we were different than Vs. My answer was that we were non-random and thus were cheaper to buy in to be tournament competitive.

Second, as to whether non-random is non-collectible, according to industry press and awards, that's pretty much exactly what differentiates a collectible from a non-collectible product.

I know people who spend MUCH more on Warhammer Armies than Heroclix teams. Hundreds of dollars more. Warhammer is treated as "non-collectible" by the industry press and Heroclix is tagged "Collectible". Generally if you know what you are buying when you buy by the box the product is deemed to be non-collectible by magazines like Comics and Games Retailer.

We felt that we fit in that category and so borrowed that usage. That's all. No scheme to hide the truth or manipulate your mind to buy the product against your will.

Honestly, the only reason the website said "1 to 4 copies" and didn't list a collation is that I put up that web page months before I even designed the collation. I was going to list checklists by the end of the month anyway per the request of one of our playtesters.

I wish you luck in changing industry press usage of the terms and award categories to fit your personal view of collectability. You're in for a long fight.

At this point I find this entire conversation quite tedious and unproductive. I think I've cleared up any misinformation you've been spreading. Any reasonable person who wants to know what our collation is can find that out pretty simply. Any person who wants to try the game for free can take a judge test now or wait until it's free on RPGNOW.Com.

Nobody is being tricked, deluded, or otherwise hornswaggled.


I have no interest in replying any more unless someone else posts.

Feel free to insult away, have the last word, shred the game, feel like a winner or whatever suits your fancy, etc. Just keep in mind the terms of use of the forums we are both posting on.
 
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Wow. I tried to read all of this but man, you two are long winded. :

Yes I was saying that Vs. is like Uno, because it's just slapping some cards down and comparing numbers. It is not like superhero's at all.

I haven't played the game much more yet, but I feel like you're being unreasonably picky about the marketing. Dude, when I was in the gaming clubs back in college or when I buy magic now, I have to get like three boxes just to get ONE of every set card. If I want 4 copies of each card, I generally spend hours on e-bay getting singles for each deck I want to build. Or I draft them. The argument that this garuntee to make us hunt cards less is some kind of ripoff is just dumb.

It's like saying that Hoyal playing cards are collectible because if I want 4 ace of spades I have to buy four decks.

I will also say, that looking over the cards, most of them have deck building numbers printed in the corner. So you know how many you can sleeve into your deck. A fair amount have 1 and 2 card restrictions.

I'm not a big arguer. I brows boards and play games for fun. Everything I've seen, Including the amount that "Veritas" personal are working to support this product, seems to me that this company wants to help player play a game and not drop a ton of cash. The big games like VS. and Magic are the ones that are card mills, trying to suck away cash.

That's my thoughts.

Maybe a simple question will solve this. Veritas, are the boxes coalated so that there are cards that I NEED 3 to 4 of and you only included 1 to make us essentially chase cards anyway?
 
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Man, so I just read the rest of this. I was trying to be polite, but Jesus Martin, talk about busting balls just to be a pain. The points you're making are just plain stupid. For example,

Quote:
And that's even before the chaos of drafting starts where the fiorst player who selects a pack will choose what he knows to be the best pack in the box. This is what will happen in every draft event, precisely because the game is not random.


Dude, take two hands, set them in a box and toss the packs. They're not super glued in. I've never played a draft where this wasn't done. And if we know where the packs are then we will make sure to do it.

You also are burning the game as not supporting stores because it has cards available online. Um...Again look at ANY other game, because they all have stores online. AND if you read up on the game, it seems that part of the PRIZE structure is to get cards sent from online. I think that's what he was refering to. I'm pretty sure a new game wants to do everything it can to work with stores. They do count on them to put the game on their shelf.

The only somewhat decent point I found in most of the pointless nitpicking was that it's a risk for a store to put a game on their shelf. I don't know much about retail, but yeah, new card games do tank, so it probably is a risk for a store to drop $100 dollars on a new game. But that's a risk with any game, a store can't get it's money back once it buys something.

But seriously, coming on a board and burning a new game, (And a great game from what I've seen) is one thing, but I don't even get what you're bitching about. You get a whole set if you buy a box, AND if you want you can still play draft! What's the problem here. Maybe I'm just missing something but doesn't that sound like the best of both worlds.

Hold on, I've feel some sarcasm coming on.

Yeah, I'd much rather play a game where I can spend hundreds of dollars, to maybe get what i want, then spend maybe hundreds more on singles (and we've all done this) to try and build three or four different decks. Yeah that's WAY better then knowing how much to spend and knowing what I will get.

...Did you detect the sarcasm?

And Finally dude, if this game really is conducting a conspiracy by misleading players, then after a handful of player buy the boxes, they're going to know pretty quick that it's a marketing gimik. If that is the case then it's not going to take this company very far.
 
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tommygun wrote:

Maybe a simple question will solve this. Veritas, are the boxes coalated so that there are cards that I NEED 3 to 4 of and you only included 1 to make us essentially chase cards anyway?



You can't build every possible deck in the world with just one box of draft packs and two starter decks, but you can build a lot of really competitive decks with them; we are providing a diverse, competitive tournament collation, not an infinitely versatile auto-win collation with two starter decks and one box of draft packs. I can say that you definitely don't NEED 4 copies of everything except if you want to have lots of decks stacked at the same time.

I just competed against one of my business partners today with a deck that was built from one box of draft packs and two starter decks. I assumed I'd picked up like four promotional singles of my choice by playing in 4 tournaments as part of the players club (where, starting next month, you'll get to pick promo cards you want as part of the players club, getting them in the order YOU want).

My business partner built from an unlimited card pool including access to 3 deep of every promotional card that players could earn in a year for playing. Plus 6 starter decks. Plus three boxes of draft packs. I beat him 2 games out of 3.

I built a fairly esoteric deck. More typical decks are even easier to build out of one box of draft packs and two starter decks.



Quote:
The only somewhat decent point I found in most of the pointless nitpicking was that it's a risk for a store to put a game on their shelf. I don't know much about retail, but yeah, new card games do tank, so it probably is a risk for a store to drop $100 dollars on a new game. But that's a risk with any game, a store can't get it's money back once it buys something.


Actually a store can get its money back. In the U.S. and a Canada we offer full returnability to retailers and a long return period. If stores can't move the product they buy from us then they have up until the beginning of July to return the unsold portion for a pro-rated full refund (they just pay return shipping).

So there's basically no substantive risk to stores carrying our product.

Quote:
And Finally dude, if this game really is conducting a conspiracy by misleading players, then after a handful of player buy the boxes, they're going to know pretty quick that it's a marketing gimik. If that is the case then it's not going to take this company very far.


Agreed. In fact, we are relying on good word of mouth and we cannot afford to poison it.

And we very much appreciate the kind words you've contributed. Let us know if there's anything you need to get a play group started up in your area.

Best regards,
Lee Valentine
President
Veritas Games Co., LLC
 
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tommygun wrote:
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And that's even before the chaos of drafting starts where the fiorst player who selects a pack will choose what he knows to be the best pack in the box. This is what will happen in every draft event, precisely because the game is not random.



By the way, the above is impossible. Draft rules (posted soon) involve opening up all the packs simultaneously and putting all the contents out on the table in front of everyone. If if there was one best pack (and I'm not certain that there is), since its contents will be split up on the table to be picked through by all players in rotation, there's not a huge advantage of knowing which pack you have in your hand. It's just more fun not knowing what's gonna be in the drack.
 
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Quote:
I just competed against one of my business partners today with a deck that was built from one box of draft packs and two starter decks. I assumed I'd picked up like four promotional singles of my choice by playing in 4 tournaments as part of the players club (where, starting next month, you'll get to pick promo cards you want as part of the players club, getting them in the order YOU want).

My business partner built from an unlimited card pool including access to 3 deep of every promotional card that players could earn in a year for playing. Plus 6 starter decks. Plus three boxes of draft packs. I beat him 2 games out of 3.


Ouch, way to tell the whole world. : ) I am the other business partner he is referring too. So we talked a lot about this tonight and I was frankly rather shocked at this reaction.

Lee is very humble, so I'll go ahead and tell you what our design meetings over the last two years have been like. EVERY SINGLE THING we decided on was done by asking the question's, "What do we like about playing card games, and what, as players do we not like?"

I don't like dropping a ton of money on collecting, but I simply do not buy non-collectible card games because I like draft play, and I like the way CCG's play. We decided that we could ensure the fun of a collectible card game and not hurt your wallet. Lee himself spent countless late nights pouring over the coalation (sp?) so that it would maximize fun and utility during draft, and still give a player the most deck building utility and options with one box.

The whole argument about the wording is a moot point. We're not trying to "pull on over" on anyone. We have a unique way we are putting this game out. We have tried to make it easier on the buyer. We call the game Non-Collectible, not as a trick, but simply as a means to get the question asked, "What does non-collectible mean?" Lee is the first to get the word out on what it means. It's kind of funny that some people are trying to find fault in the wording, not the actual coalation. Is anyone arguing that they don't want to get a full set from one box? I think that would be kind of goofy. : )

I know this is hard to believe, that a company actually puts the good of a game over the almighty buck, but its true. Behind Veritas games is just a handful of guys who love to play games and who love comics. That is what we want to get out there, a great game that treats it's players the way they should be treated.

Furthermore, that's what Powerstorm is about. Yeah, making money would be great, but what we want is a great game. It may sound like ego, but our game is great. There is some talk about the rules being complicated. Yeah Lee can be a little wordy, but our rule book is not any more complicated then VS. or Magic. The reason it seems like it's more complex is because unlike other games, we actually took the time to write the rule book before we put the game out. We could have just put the little rulebook out in the box, and snuck the big one in 3 months later when the game was being broken in organized play, but we did it right instead. We have been play testing this game for two years. We have tried to break this thing so many ways, I sincerely believe that it is the best play tested game on the market. (and Lee is probably going to scold me for making comments like that : )

My point is, this game is fun. It's cheap to get into. We have a great prize support system, and a unique drafting system that is a blast. Our art on the cards is off the chart. Mostly what we want is to get a strong base of players, and have a great tournament structure in the local stores. We are about fun, and we stand by our product whole heartedly.

I don't know what Lee thinks, but I would love to get Martin to play our game somehow. I believe in this game so much that I would have Martin take the Pepsi challenge with Powerstorm and any game on the market right now, and I think our game would be more fun to play. I sincerely do.

Joseph Gagnepain
 
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Martin. Try the game. You don't know what you're talking about. There aren't any single cards that give you an auto win. The draft format is unique in that you draft stacks of cards per character like a baseball draft, and the character comes with there best card. There isn't a "best pack," because the game is actually balanced. The characters are balanced, but the have different functions. Do I want to play a mastermind, do I want to play a psychic, or do I want to play a guy they shoots fire. Seriously, try to break the game, then complain. You're basically trying to argue that the Red Sox won't ever win the Series because they don't have a quarterback who can throw touch downs. This game isn't magic. Try it and then I'll take the time to address concerns.

And we are not misleading anyone. We have it printed in big yellow type, on the actual box, what we mean by non-collectible.

Joseph

P.S. I agree completely with tommygun on VS. It could have pictures of Care Bears and be the exact same game. No superhero feel at all.
 
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bloke wrote:

You've never played in a ccg with collation like this. As soon as someone gets the best pack (or people get the best packs) people will just give up. YOu can't draft with a game where people know what's in the packs!



As I've pointed out, you can. Since you put every last card face up on the table BEFORE the draft starts for EVERYONE to see. The only reason to hide what's going into the draft is to give people less of an opportunity to pre-plan exactly what they are going to do.

Even if there were one best pack, it'll be divided up and picked through by the group in full view of everyone.

Quote:
No retailer will see any incentive to sell this at all since they wont' make any money from it past one initial box sale (if that!)


This is true of any non-collectible game or stand alone board game. This game is expandable.

Quote:
but you DONT get a whole set! A whole set is enough cards to build with NOT one of each card!


I've already posted the collation link. You don't get just one of each card. You get one of some, two of others, and 3 or 4 of others.

Just about all the really powerful cards in the game are limited to one per deck (right on the card) so your deck power regarding these cards doesn't go up if you own 2, 3, 4, or a thousand of them. You don't seem ready to emotionally grasp that principle, probably because you've probably never played a game where the number of copies is explicitly limited on a per card basis by information printed right on the card.

You don't get enough cards out of one box to build every possible deck in the universe, but you can build some very fun competitive decks and have some diversity to what you can stack. Which was our goal.
 
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bloke wrote:

But you have no idea what will be competitive until the tounament scene properly develops. And you don't get enough cards in a box as i have already demonstrated. it's a simple equation of set size vs box size.


We've been playtesting the game for about two years now. We have pretty good ideas of what makes a competitive deck, a good deck, or a weak deck.

And since many cards are limited explicitly to one or two per deck, and since the matching rules ding you for putting more than one copy of a card in, I can tell you that having four of every card in your deck will typically be illegal or at the bare minimum undesirable. You don't understand the game or it's deck stacking rules.

Again, while I've responded to some things that were interjected into the thread, I've said my peace, as again, it seems that Martin simply wants to be a nay-sayer, and I'm probably not going to bother wasting electrons typing any more than I have until someone else new posts again.
 
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Quote:
But you have no idea what will be competitive until the tounament scene properly develops. And you don't get enough cards in a box as i have already demonstrated. it's a simple equation of set size vs box size.


And yes we do. We've play tested this game for 2 years, with groups from around the country. It's balanced. There will not be two deck types that dominate. Unlike other games, there are a large number of competitive balanced teams one can build. We basically created a tournament environment and instructed everyone to break it. Then we assigned them characters to try and break. Then we assigned them card combos to try and break.

As far as your "equation" it's just wrong. You can build competitive decks with one box. Simple as that. You disagree, play the game and prove us wrong. You won't be able to, but you'll have fun trying, because it's a great game.

Joseph
 
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Hahaha. Jinks. Guess we're both doing the same thing right now.
 
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Wow, full house today.

There has always got to be a board bully. Look, I played Vs. in tournaments. I didn't like it. I was seduced by the idea of winning money, but I didn't like the game. It's my opinion. It isn't fun. The only reason it didn't die as fast as that recharge game is because of the money they threw at it.

I've only played this game with a starter my game shop had and a pack, but I liked it.
 
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And boxes of ccg's sell because people want to play the game, not because they make chase cards.
 
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Vs. is popular because there are pictures of superheroes and there WAS a million dollar pro tour. When I look at a card and say, "Oh 6 beats your 7." That doesn't feel like Batman being a detective.
 
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My point is, the mechanic is a good mechanic. But most decks have 5 versions of a guy, you summon characters, and mostly they are represents by two numbers.

The mechanic is kind of fun, it's a hybrid of every other magic clone on the market, so yes, the game mechanic has some merit. But I stick to my guns that if you took those pictures of the cards, changed it to say Battle Star Galactica, it wouldn't change the game one bit. You would have to rename cards but that's it.

I want a game that makes me feel like I'm playing a superhero. I don't feel that with VS. anymore then I do when I play Marvel Uno. That was my point.
 
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