Capt. Winters
Norway
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One thing I find unclear in the rules are how to use HE against different infantry.HE ammo will attack the defenders flank DV which goes for all tanks/mortars. But do we apply this for AT gun and infantry gun as well, firing against infantry? That's how I play now but need to get this right. This things should be explained more in the coming rulebooks for new versions, I think. (e.g. Guadalcanal)

Thanks for helping.
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Dan Carey
United States
Woodinville
Washington
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I think it is pretty clear right now.

When a tank fires at infantry, it uses the red fire power value. It does not hit the flank, unless it is firing at the flank/rear of the target. I've always assumed this fire was a combination of machine guns + the tank's main gun.

The infantry gun or AT gun use their red fire power value just as the tank does.

Mortars hit against a target's flank defense value.
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Capt. Winters
Norway
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Well, that's of course the basic rules and what I started out with in the beginning. But then I found a tread here on BGG
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19146809#19146809 were you, in fact, writes something else... The OP asks the same question as I did and you agreed that when a tank, infantry gun or anti-tank gun is firing at soft targets, it's firing HE and has the ability to fire HE. High explosive ammo is attacking flank DV. No wonder one gets confused... As I said these things need more clarification and I hope people here can fill in.

From the rulebook AtB p. 12 and the tank pictured: These units usually fire bullets or high explosive ammunitions, marked by red FP values on their counters...(in other words they DO fire HE ammo with red values...I believe there is a typo in the picture where the line from "MG and HE (Red)" SHOULD point to RED FP VALUE

So again, do infantry gun and AT gun shot HE ammo against soft targets?? Could need an official clarification here.
 
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Norman Smith
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The typo that you refer to is simply a slip of the pen, it is pretty clear that the second line (used like an arrow would be) should have been drawn from the words Armor-Piercing shell and that the first line (used like an arrow would be) refers to ALL the words that say Firepower (FP) MG & HE (red).

I think it is safe to ignore the BGG thread you refer to, the answers are apparently based upon a misunderstanding of what the OP is actually asking.

It is perhaps more helpful to think of tank fire and (on board) infantry guns and anti-tank guns as using 'direct' fire and that all off board artillery fire and on board mortars uses indirect or having what might otherwise be called plunging fire or bombardment capability. Those latter units that have what in effect is plunging fire do a have explosion type symbol next to their Red FP to represent the HE literally falling out of the sky.

Have a look at your terrain chart. look at walls, you will see that they only provide cover against weapons that are firing directly at them across the wall symbol (such as tanks, anti-tank guns and infantry guns) ... it does not offer protection against mortar or off-board artillery fire, because that stuff is literally falling out of the sky rather than flying across the wall and having to negate the protection that it affords.

So in answer to the original post, just use tank, infantry, infantry gun and anti-tank red values normally (like infantry) against whatever facing the unit presents. ONLY use mortars and off board artillery to use fire that will always be treated as flank fire.

the hexes in CoH are only 40 metres across, at those ranges, only mortars and off board artillery could ever deliver what amounts to plunging fire.

Rule 12.1 should be read specifically as it is written in relation to what units it applies to (those with a symbol).

I agree that it has not been helpful to use the term High Explosive or HE in a generic way. A sentence describing the nature of plunging fire might have been more helpful.
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Capt. Winters
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Hi Norman, thanks for quick response. I think reading the for mentioned post where people agreed that inf. gun and AT gun had HE ammo, made me accept this without consider it more. The consequences have been stronger tanks,AT and inf.guns in my games. Have to take another look at the tactical aspects now for sure.

And by the way, great article you have written about different systems in war games. I am so happy finding CoH which gives me everything I need in this great hobby of wargaming.

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Capt. Winters
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Just to show how things add to the confusion; from the description on German 7,5 cm Infantry Gun, page 18 in the Rulebook:

7.5cm Inf Gun

The short barrel leIG 18 light infantry gun
was used for close infantry support against
soft targets and fired high-explosive shells.

Clearly, historically they used HE ammo but are not given this in CoH (even if they are described as so in the rulebook). A mistake?

Anyway, I'll let the off board art/mortars do HE action hereafter.
 
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Norman Smith
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No mistake, just the rules could have been better explained - the reality is that infantry guns, tanks and anti-tank guns DID have HE shells and that is what is being represented by the red figure on the counter.

It's just that mortars and off board artillery have the extra capability of allowing their HE shells come in overhead (i.e. plunging) and that is why they have the HE symbol on the counter.

The problem is that if you know that HE can be fired in two different ways (either flat trajectory for tanks, anti-tank guns or on table infantry guns or high trajectory for mortars and off-table artillery) then the rules as given are easier to interpret ...... otherwise in terms of the text used, the rule writers could have done a better job of explaining exactly what that HE symbol is really showing and why mortars and off-board HE is being treated differently than any other type of HE.

Bottom line is, yes, just apply the specific HE rule to off board artillery and mortars.

If you were to add this bit of text to rule 12.1 it might help .... Mortars and off board artillery use their red firepower ( firepower against soft targets) in a slightly different way to other units. Because they drop their shells from a high trajectory onto the target, attacks by mortars and off-board artillery are always resolved against the targets flank and they also ignore the presence of walls. These units have a special HE symbol next to the red rating to remind the player of these extra qualities.
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Maxime
France
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I was also confused about the HE rules, especially with long range Anti Infranty Gun not fitted with the HE icon.

I once saw a picture on BGG (couldn't find it yet) of an AntiInfantry Gun counter fitted with the "HE" icon next to the red FP. It might be a picture from the counter during development. The red FP was only 4. (now it is 5).
HE effects seem to have been abstracted in the FP Value which might have been increased

Another question came up when playing with Wreck&Destructions : I have house ruled that units with HE icon can also destroy buildings, not only OffBoard Infantry.
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