Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
19 Posts

Tuscany: Expand the World of Viticulture» Forums » General

Subject: Trading for victory points too powerful? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
RB
United States
Zeeland
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is anyone else feeling that the trading spot, when used to trade for victory points on the extended board is too powerful? Essentially, you can get two victory points for three actions - two actions to get the cards/money/grapes needed and one action to make the trade - assumes you get the bonus spot, which is easy, because... You don't care about winter and barely care about fall. That means you can use all of your workers before the "normal" players (who need winter), thereby allowing yourself to have first pick of the turn order track. Also, you can toss in the ability to sell/rebuy all of your vineyards for a victory point each turn, if available.

in my last three games this strategy has won or placed a close second... And that is without fully concentrating on it. I am pretty sure they would have all won if they concentrated on this from the beginning. On the third game I actively tried to take the spot away from the player doing this, but even with that, he was able to finish a tight second (again, if he did it from the very beginning I am fairly confident he would have won)

I am curious to hear other people's experience with this strategy...

I am debating house ruling that you can't use the trading spot for victory points, since it just feels contrary to the spirit of the game to have someone win without producing grapes/wine!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean West
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm struggling to understand.

If you start with 3 workers and concentrate all your effort on the "trading for victory points" strategy as you've described it then you would be doing nothing but trying to do this and at some point your opponents should be able to block at least one of those actions.

But even assuming you pull it off for the whole game and that an average game lasts about 7 or 8 years, that would only generate 14-16 points. Even throwing in the sell/rebuy bonus (that I'm not sure how you'd get since you wouldn't have enough workers) that's an absolute max of 21-24 points.

If the other players aren't able to overtake that player before he reaches 25 points, they are playing very poorly.

Unless I am missing something.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
RB
United States
Zeeland
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

7or 8 rounds sounds quicker than our games, but I don't know this for sure. So maybe this is our problem...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M.C.Crispy
United Kingdom
Basingstoke
Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dutch_72 wrote:

7or 8 rounds sounds quicker than our games, but I don't know this for sure. So maybe this is our problem...
7-8 rounds seems to be 'received wisdom'. Not sure whether it's a real average. Not sure how many turns my games last, I'm not obsessive enough to count them. You might say that 7-8 turns is the average recorded by those obsessive enough to count their game turns. Not sure what that says.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean West
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mccrispy wrote:
Dutch_72 wrote:

7or 8 rounds sounds quicker than our games, but I don't know this for sure. So maybe this is our problem...
7-8 rounds seems to be 'received wisdom'. Not sure whether it's a real average. Not sure how many turns my games last, I'm not obsessive enough to count them. You might say that 7-8 turns is the average recorded by those obsessive enough to count their game turns. Not sure what that says.

In my experience, it's perfectly reasonable for a player who knows the game to reach 25 points by their 7th turn. But even granting some leeway to that, for someone to win with this strategy the game would have to last 9 to 13 rounds MINIMUM... AND all of the other players would have to never block that player even once... AND they would all have to do worse overall in that number of turns.

I am willing to concede that I'm looking at this the wrong way if you can show me that I am but it is hard for me to believe that just about any experienced player couldn't get a better score in the time it would take for this strategy to hit 25 points.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M.C.Crispy
United Kingdom
Basingstoke
Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
seanmwest wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Dutch_72 wrote:

7or 8 rounds sounds quicker than our games, but I don't know this for sure. So maybe this is our problem...
7-8 rounds seems to be 'received wisdom'. Not sure whether it's a real average. Not sure how many turns my games last, I'm not obsessive enough to count them. You might say that 7-8 turns is the average recorded by those obsessive enough to count their game turns. Not sure what that says.

In my experience, it's perfectly reasonable for a player who knows the game to reach 25 points by their 7th turn. But even granting some leeway to that, for someone to win with this strategy the game would have to last 9 to 13 rounds MINIMUM... AND all of the other players would have to never block that player even once... AND they would all have to do worse overall in that number of turns.

I am willing to concede that I'm looking at this the wrong way if you can show me that I am but it is hard for me to believe that just about any experienced player couldn't get a better score in the time it would take for this strategy to hit 25 points.
Yes, I can divide 25 by 2. I'm commenting only on received wisdom game length, not the viability of the strategy in an expert game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean West
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mccrispy wrote:
Yes, I can divide 25 by 2. I'm commenting only on received wisdom game length, not the viability of the strategy in an expert game.

Oooooooo Kay... In that case I withdraw my response because your post had nothing to do with discussion in the thread. I guess.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M.C.Crispy
United Kingdom
Basingstoke
Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
seanmwest wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Yes, I can divide 25 by 2. I'm commenting only on received wisdom game length, not the viability of the strategy in an expert game.

Oooooooo Kay... In that case I withdraw my response because your post had nothing to do with discussion in the thread. I guess.
Except that I was confirming the poster's observation that 7-8 turns may well not be the "normal" game length and intimating that those who respond on threads like this may not constitute "normal" players and therefore they shouldn't necessarily be regarded as universal benchmarks. (It's the "8 out of 10 cat owners that expressed a preference said that ..." problem).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Holger Doessing
Denmark
Odense
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The solo game is always exactly 7 rounds, and I believe (I don't have the game in front of me now) that at least some of the difficulty levels require you to reach ~25 points before the end of the game.

What I am trying to say is that I don't think 8 rounds sounds unreasonable for a "normal" game, and - more importantly - I agree that I'm not quite sure it is really that easy to pull off a strategy based mainly around the trading spot. (I guess I'll just have to try it out sometime.)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean West
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think me citing 7 or 8 years as "average" has sidetracked my larger point that HOWEVER MANY years you think is average (which may be more than 8 but I don't think it could be many more), a somewhat experienced player should be able to get more points than the trading strategy would generate.

As holgerd points out, 7 years is a good benchmark because the solo game consists of exactly 7 rounds and people are expected to be able to win that with 25 points. For every year you add to 7, it should be easier for a player to reach 25 points before the trading strategy would be able to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Monrad Pedersen
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dutch_72 wrote:
Is anyone else feeling that the trading spot, when used to trade for victory points on the extended board is too powerful? Essentially, you can get two victory points for three actions - two actions to get the cards/money/grapes needed and one action to make the trade - assumes you get the bonus spot, which is easy, because... You don't care about winter and barely care about fall. That means you can use all of your workers before the "normal" players (who need winter), thereby allowing yourself to have first pick of the turn order track. Also, you can toss in the ability to sell/rebuy all of your vineyards for a victory point each turn, if available.

in my last three games this strategy has won or placed a close second... And that is without fully concentrating on it. I am pretty sure they would have all won if they concentrated on this from the beginning. On the third game I actively tried to take the spot away from the player doing this, but even with that, he was able to finish a tight second (again, if he did it from the very beginning I am fairly confident he would have won)

I am curious to hear other people's experience with this strategy...

I am debating house ruling that you can't use the trading spot for victory points, since it just feels contrary to the spirit of the game to have someone win without producing grapes/wine!


Hi RB

As the guy who made the solo mode I have a spreadsheet of playtest data that tells how many VPs you can be scoring. The solo mode is not 100% comparable of course, but it’s not too far off.

You don’t state which expansions you include, but since you mention the extended board, I’m assuming at least Tier 1 plus the extended board, that is at least 5 expansions and of course at most 9 expansions.

For 5-9 expansions good players were getting 30-50 VPs in 7 years using the solo mode.

Thus, a strategy whose core is scoring 14 VP in 7 years using 21 worker placements (if I’m understanding you correctly) is definitely not too powerful.

I’m not saying this to put you down, but instead I’m saying it to let you know that there’s a lot of strategies in the game that you can explore in order to investigate what works best, and to me that’s one of the fun parts of gaming.

Have fun
- Morten
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J M
United States
Scottdale
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mccrispy wrote:
seanmwest wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Yes, I can divide 25 by 2. I'm commenting only on received wisdom game length, not the viability of the strategy in an expert game.

Oooooooo Kay... In that case I withdraw my response because your post had nothing to do with discussion in the thread. I guess.
Except that I was confirming the poster's observation that 7-8 turns may well not be the "normal" game length and intimating that those who respond on threads like this may not constitute "normal" players and therefore they shouldn't necessarily be regarded as universal benchmarks. (It's the "8 out of 10 cat owners that expressed a preference said that ..." problem).


The topic is about the relative power of an action available in the game. In that context, the game should only have to be balanced when all players are playing competently, with the inference that competent players will not play more than eight rounds, and likely only seven. Until players reach that point, they should probably consider themselves as still learning the game and deferring any pronunciations on the balance of actions.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
RB
United States
Zeeland
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, if people are scoring 30-50 points in 7 years, then we are clearly still in the learning stages... especially given that 2 rounds worth of actions are almost entirely consumed by building your worker base. That would leave 5 years to average 6 to 10 points per year?! Not even mentioning the time needed to properly age your wines to fill the orders.

Does anyone have play logs or videos demonstrating this? Very curious to see where we are playing differently!

By the way, so far we have been playing with: extended board, new/advanced visitors, and property.

Thanks for the responses.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Hogue
United States
O'fallon
IL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dutch_72 wrote:
Wow, if people are scoring 30-50 points in 7 years, then we are clearly still in the learning stages... especially given that 2 rounds worth of actions are almost entirely consumed by building your worker base.


This is not a game that rewards building a large worker base. You can easily score 20+ points in 7 yearas with the orginal three workers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M.C.Crispy
United Kingdom
Basingstoke
Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EricHogue wrote:
Dutch_72 wrote:
Wow, if people are scoring 30-50 points in 7 years, then we are clearly still in the learning stages... especially given that 2 rounds worth of actions are almost entirely consumed by building your worker base.


This is not a game that rewards building a large worker base. You can easily score 20+ points in 7 years with the orginal three workers.
Agreed, I think a lot of beginners fall into the WP trap with this game. This is a race game, so speed is of the essence and buying 3 extra workers costs at least 1 turn's-worth of actions - probably more if you factor getting the money for it. If you accept that the game length for experienced players is 7-8 turns then losing a turn is a big deal. Of course, if you can pick up a Worker "for free" then it's probably worth it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Wing
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey Dutch, back to your original question. I've used this same general strategy for the last three games. I won twice and lost three times in a tie; the last game having won in round six by an eleven point margin, 29 total.

I sell all my fields getting the point for selling; get all my workers from that cash; take the tasting room if provided by the "papa's" if possible; use any summer cards for their points; then exchange any remaining cards and cash for points. Even when other players try to hobble this it takes away from their own engines so much that they don't make any progress and lose to it anyway.

It's been powerful enough that I probably won't continue to run it again for the sake of fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamey Stegmaier
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Brian: I just want to make sure you're aware of the new tasting room rule: To get a victory point by having the tasting room and giving a tour, you must have at least 1 wine token in your cellar.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Juan Crespo
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jameystegmaier wrote:
Brian: I just want to make sure you're aware of the new tasting room rule: To get a victory point by having the tasting room and giving a tour, you must have at least 1 wine token in your cellar.
Jamey, just curious if the new tasting room rule made it into the latest version of the Viticulture Essential Ed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamey Stegmaier
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Juan: It did! Though it's an official rule for all versions now. http://stonemaiergames.com/games/viticulture/essential-editi...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.