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Subject: Clumsy Withdrawal Clarification rss

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Jon Purkis
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How does the Clumsy Hard Knock work if the player withdraws last?

The card clearly states "AFTER your withdrawal, you must draw a trial card".

But if the player with clumsy withdraws last, then surely the mission is completed when they withdraw. Is that correct?

Or should the player still draw a card to add to the mission? And if that card is a third in a set, is the mission failed?

Thanks for your help.
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Murr Rockstroh
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Not having played the game yet, but getting it soon, check the v1.1 rules in the file section, the last few pages.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/120596/grizzled-rulebook-...

There's a section about conflicting Hard Knocks and how to resolve them. It mentions Clumsy.
 
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clarence
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jonpurkis wrote:
How does the Clumsy Hard Knock work if the player withdraws last?

The card clearly states "AFTER your withdrawal, you must draw a trial card".

But if the player with clumsy withdraws last, then surely the mission is completed when they withdraw. Is that correct?

Or should the player still draw a card to add to the mission? And if that card is a third in a set, is the mission failed?

Thanks for your help.


You still have to draw a trial card and add it to mission even you are last to withdraw. Yes. Mission failed if it is a third card in a set.
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steve brothers
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So do you draw the card from the Peace pile or the Monument pile?
 
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Benji
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From the"peace" pile, just like with traps.
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Justin Haviland
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What if the trials deck is empty?
 
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Benji
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You never draw if the trial-deck is empty. Not for traps, not for being clumsy.
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Chuck Mitchell

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whipko wrote:
You still have to draw a trial card and add it to mission even you are last to withdraw. Yes. Mission failed if it is a third card in a set.


What is your source for this?

My friends argue that when a Mission is a success because all players have withdrawn..... it's a success. Thus, in their mind, the Clumsy card becomes a 'bonus throwaway' card if you manage to withdraw last.

I disagree with my friends, but I'm wondering what authority I can cite for the rule as cited above.
 
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Eugene Wong
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chuckm1961 wrote:
whipko wrote:
You still have to draw a trial card and add it to mission even you are last to withdraw. Yes. Mission failed if it is a third card in a set.


What is your source for this?

My friends argue that when a Mission is a success because all players have withdrawn..... it's a success. Thus, in their mind, the Clumsy card becomes a 'bonus throwaway' card if you manage to withdraw last.

I disagree with my friends, but I'm wondering what authority I can cite for the rule as cited above.


The success condition applies first, because the success happens at the withdrawal ["all the players have withdrawn"]. The extra card comes after the withdrawal.
 
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Chuck Mitchell

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Eugene, sounds like you are saying that when someone with Clumsy is the last player to withdraw, they draw a card and cannot possibly fail the Mission.

Whereas Whipko says that Clumsy's card draw in that situation could cause the Mission to fail.

I think the card and rules can be read to support both interpretations. What I'd like to know is that the game designer intended.
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Benji
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What exactly would be clumsy about you if you couldn't fail the mission (or would even get rid of bonus cards)?

The original (french) card states "en se repliant", which means "as he retreats" (= at the same time, so before checking for mission success).
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Eugene Wong
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Chuck, you interpret us both correctly, but the English doesn't lend itself to both, because the English requires us to draw that card after mission success, which is significant. "After" and "during" are totally different things.

If we were to go with the original language, and then let that be authoritative for all languages, then drawing that card before mission success is correct. On the other hand, it is possible that they wrote the wrong words for what they wanted, even though it was in French.

I also, would like the designers to chime in.
 
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Benji
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eugenetswong wrote:
Chuck, you interpret us both correctly, but the English doesn't lend itself to both, because the English requires us to draw that card after mission success, which is significant. "After" and "during" are totally different things.

If we were to go with the original language, and then let that be authoritative for all languages, then drawing that card before mission success is correct. On the other hand, it is possible that they wrote the wrong words for what they wanted, even though it was in French.

I also, would like the designers to chime in.


Again: being clumsy (and the card being labelled a "hard knock") does not really leave much room for interpretation. Why should being clumsy help you get rid of an additional card? Why would you suspect the authors to be wrong in their own language, when both the idea of the card and the wording are absolutely consistent? The intention is definitely clear.

By the way, even the english "after" is not really incorrect, because you won't place your support tile and draw an additional card at exactly the same time. Both drawing the card and checking for mission success really happen after withdrawing, the english rules are not explicit in which of these two happens first in case of the clumsy guy being the last person on the mission, but again, the meaning of the card is obvious.
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Eugene Wong
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Benji68 wrote:
Again: being clumsy (and the card being labelled a "hard knock") does not really leave much room for interpretation. Why should being clumsy help you get rid of an additional card? Why would you suspect the authors to be wrong in their own language, when both the idea of the card and the wording are absolutely consistent? The intention is definitely clear.


People write errors in their own language all the time. It's not as if all games have made no corrections.

I don't have the card in front of me, but this discussion started with "The card clearly states 'AFTER your withdrawal, you must draw a trial card'.". This is different than drawing while we withdrawal. "After" means, only after the withdrawal is complete. By then, the mission is a success.

The fact that it helps us is a side effect that designers might not have intended at first, but wanted to keep to encourage people to use a certain strategy. Not all negative cards need to have only negative side effects. According to the "after" view, the clumsy card causes problems only when the soldier withdrawals before the other players. They need to strategize to make sure that it doesn't happen, or they need to make sure that they can deal with whatever card is turned over.

Also, it keeps the rules simpler. You can't have a mission failure after a mission success.
 
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Benji
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Ok, let's see:

English version: translated from the original, makes kind of sense at best only after a convoluted argument (friendship means leaving the clumsy guy alone in the field while everybody else disappears), may still be the correct interpretation if the translator knew the game better than the author.

French version: original wording of the author, consistent with the meaning of the card, no special reasoning required.

You choose.

By the way: none of the two version says there is a "failed mission after a success". This is inherently impossible. There can't be a success until everybody retreated. THEN it is declared either a success or a failure. If at all, the english version would be a special case (if played incorrectly), not the french one.
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Eugene Wong
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Well, when you mention the translator, you have a very strong argument.

I feel bad for this, but I'm stilling willing to stick to my guns, because I heard from native French speakers, that French is a very difficult language to communicate with. I've been told that native speakers aren't always confident of what the other native speaker is saying, unless it is thoroughly discussed.

Of course, neither of them would say that there is a failed mission after a success. We are discussing what would happen if that extra card would normally result in a failed mission. No matter what interpretation we go with, if the extra card doesn't cause any problems, then there is no way that the mission could fail.

Also, leaving the clumsy guy behind is a valid tactic, because he might have actions that he can use, such as playing cards. It is not an automatically successful strategy. I'm just saying that there is an opportunity there.

We can't only rely on the main intent of the card, because many cards or situations can result in useful results. Like that part about running out of trial cards. If we wanted to determine that the spirit of the concept was to always flip a card over, then we'd have to draw from the morale deck, but the authors don't mean the spirit of the trials to be continued on that way. It makes sense that the spirit of the rule is to continue up to a certain point. In many games, there are unique side effects for unique situations.


Hey, I'm not saying that my interpretation of the English is the author's intent. I'm saying that it fits with the English instructions, and it fits with the intent, and that only the designer can truly confirm it [assuming that he understands the issue that we are discussing].
 
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Chuck Mitchell

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Benji68 wrote:
What exactly would be clumsy about you if you couldn't fail the mission (or would even get rid of bonus cards)?

The original (french) card states "en se repliant", which means "as he retreats" (= at the same time, so before checking for mission success).


One, your first statement is incomplete. Clumsy CAN cause you to fail the mission under any scenario we are discussing (except the one exception some are positing, when he is last to withdraw).

Two, all of your arguments seem to be premised on the word "clumsy" being an accurate translation from French. Do we know this to be true?

...

By the way, read my first post and see that it's my friends who are arguing that someone with Clumsy, withdrawing last, does not have to count that last card draw with regard to Mission success. I personally think that's an odd reading of the card, and suspect (like you) that the designer intended for Clumsy to Break the General Rule that a Mission is a success at the moment everyone withdraws. With Clumsy, the Mission may still fail even after everyone withdraws, I think.
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Benji
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eugenetswong wrote:
and it fits with the intent, and that only the designer can truly confirm it [assuming that he understands the issue that we are discussing].


That's where you are wrong. The english version does not say whether a card is drawn before mission success is determined or afterwards. It just says that both happen after retreating.

The french version IS unmistakably clear, because it states that retreating and drawing a card happen at the same time, before mission success is determined.

In the end, the french original version leaves no room for interpretation while the english translated version does. Make of it what you like.
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Benji
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chuckm1961 wrote:

One, your first statement is incomplete. Clumsy CAN cause you to fail the mission under any scenario we are discussing (except the one exception some are positing, when he is last to withdraw).


You guys are doing this on purpose, right? Of course it can cause a mission to fail. UNDER THE ORIGINAL (correct) RULES. And not "after a mission has already been a success". A mission is either a success or a failure, declared once, after everything else.

chuckm1961 wrote:

Two, all of your arguments seem to be premised on the word "clumsy" being an accurate translation from French. Do we know this to be true?


Maladroit. Yes, we do.

chuckm1961 wrote:

I personally think that's an odd reading of the card, and suspect (like you) that the designer intended for Clumsy to Break the General Rule that a Mission is a success at the moment everyone withdraws. With Clumsy, the Mission may still fail even after everyone withdraws, I think.


That's exactly what i am saying, and it does not break any rule at all because the mission suceeds or fails after the additional card is drawn while (=at the same time as) retreating (everyone retreated, "then" the mission is a success), and it is obvious.

Over and out.
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Eugene Wong
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Benji68 wrote:
eugenetswong wrote:
and it fits with the intent, and that only the designer can truly confirm it [assuming that he understands the issue that we are discussing].


That's where you are wrong. The english version does not say whether a card is drawn before mission success is determined or afterwards. It just says that both happen after retreating.

The french version IS unmistakably clear, because it states that retreating and drawing a card happen at the same time, before mission success is determined.


The English card doesn't say that, but the English rules do say, "all of the players have withdrawn, in
which case the Mission is then successful. The cards in No Man’s Land are discarded.", which means that it is impossible to have 3 of a kind. If anything, the extra card is left for the next mission.

Anyhow, you've said your view, and I've said mine.
 
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Bret Guy
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The draw happens because the card says it MUST happen. That much is clear.

"If the clumsy player withdraws last, can that card fail the mission?" is too specific a question.

"If the clumsy player withdraws last, when does the drawn card trigger: just before the end of the current mission or at the start of the next one?" is the correct question.

Let's consider "the next mission."

What if the card is the clumsy player's sixth hard knock?
Does he only have 5 until the start of the next mission? So you can breathe if the clumsy player gets support?

What if the card is the third threat?
Does the mission succeed and the next mission starts with a card on the board?

What if the card is "Hardheaded" and the clumsy player has 3 cards in hand?
Does he still get to withdraw but he becomes "Hardheaded" on the next mission?

What if the card is "Merry Christmas?"
Do you get rid of the hard knock next mission, and not right now?

All of this "next mission" stuff seems odd, but the card MUST be played...

Generally, the outcome that's harder for the players is the one my group favors. The drawn card triggering for the current mission, not the next one, has the most hardship. That way, there is only one good outcome (Merry Christmas) and a cascade of dreadful ones.

And I think we can all agree that a cascade of dread is the designer's intent.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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In a related thread, PunTheHun reported an official ruling that provides resolution here.

The key point is that, while the English Clumsy card says to draw and play "after" withdrawing, and while the French Maladroit card says to draw and play "as you withdraw", the draw-and-play effectively happens before you withdraw (in some sense).

That is, a Clumsy player's action unfolds as follows:

1. The player chooses to withdraw (as opposed to one of the other actions).

2. The player draws and plays a card.

3. If play of the card at #2 exposes a third identical Threat, the Mission fails. (This occurs immediately, even though Mission success/failure is normally determined after a player completes an action.)

4. If the Mission failed at #3, the player is not considered to have withdrawn; he cannot play a Support tile. Otherwise, he plays a Support tile normally.

Notice that this order means that the player can account for the identity of the card drawn at #2 in deciding which Support tile to play at #4 (assuming that the Mission does not fail at #3).
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Joe Kong
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gillum wrote:
In a related thread, PunTheHun reported an official ruling that provides resolution here.

The key point is that, while the English Clumsy card says to draw and play "after" withdrawing, and while the French Maladroit card says to draw and play "as you withdraw", the draw-and-play effectively happens before you withdraw (in some sense).

That is, a Clumsy player's action unfolds as follows:

1. The player chooses to withdraw (as opposed to one of the other actions).

2. The player draws and plays a card.

3. If play of the card at #2 exposes a third identical Threat, the Mission fails. (This occurs immediately, even though Mission success/failure is normally determined after a player completes an action.)

4. If the Mission failed at #3, the player is not considered to have withdrawn; he cannot play a Support tile. Otherwise, he plays a Support tile normally.

Notice that this order means that the player can account for the identity of the card drawn at #2 in deciding which Support tile to play at #4 (assuming that the Mission does not fail at #3).


I will say performing the steps are so clumsy...

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Paulo Renato
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gillum wrote:
In a related thread, PunTheHun reported an official ruling that provides resolution here.

The key point is that, while the English Clumsy card says to draw and play "after" withdrawing, and while the French Maladroit card says to draw and play "as you withdraw", the draw-and-play effectively happens before you withdraw (in some sense).

That is, a Clumsy player's action unfolds as follows:

1. The player chooses to withdraw (as opposed to one of the other actions).

2. The player draws and plays a card.

3. If play of the card at #2 exposes a third identical Threat, the Mission fails. (This occurs immediately, even though Mission success/failure is normally determined after a player completes an action.)

4. If the Mission failed at #3, the player is not considered to have withdrawn; he cannot play a Support tile. Otherwise, he plays a Support tile normally.

Notice that this order means that the player can account for the identity of the card drawn at #2 in deciding which Support tile to play at #4 (assuming that the Mission does not fail at #3).


It's so obvious that Benji is right and that the steps described here by Gillum are right that I just don't understand how someone could argue for so long that Benji was wrong!!
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Tony C
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Agreed. It's as you withdraw, and could cause the mission to fail. The mission is not a success or failure until that Clumsy trial card is resolved.
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