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Subject: Questions after first play. rss

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1 Lucky Texan
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I think we eventually were playing mostly correct. My wife had 56, i had 41.

many of these questions will be obvious to other players, but i have only played Dominion once and my wife has never played a deck-builder before.

1. when 'Return' is used in the rules, that means to either the core card stacks or the Pool return pile right?

2. Are green extra, 'clean-up' 'draws' done before, or after drawing 6 cards? (may not matter, even if the discard pile needs to be shuffled into a new draw deck?)

3. When a W Action says you may gain a 0 card and put it straight into play. Does that mean the card, if taken(that part seems optional) MUST be added to the announced word? or can the card go to the discard pile? or on top of the draw deck for the next Hand?

4. If banked words are plurals, can singular forms be used by other players? vice-versa?

5. When an action says; "You may return a card from your hand." Is your hand any hidden cards held to your chest PLUS all the cards you laid on the table? Since you don't actually announce your word until after Actions, is it fair to say every card you own, on the table PLUS in your 'hand' is your "HAND" ?

6. K - "you may discard your draw deck, then take a card from your discard pile into your hand." I 'assume' one would want to be fairly certain there was little of value in the their draw deck at the moment they used this. right? PLUS, can you use the card chosen from the discard pile in the upcoming word Announcement? It seems so. I could also see combining this with a 'return' action to eliminate a penalty card in a 2-step action - right?

7. Green cards, like Orange, must be used in the announced word to be "in play" correct?

8. The end instructions do not seem to address what happens if the Start player is the first to achieve 7 banked words. Do other players begin last Word or do they get another 'normal' round? Could I get some expanded end-game explanation?

thanx

Carl
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Andrew Rowse
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These are good questions, and luckily even the ones you might have got wrong are not critical!

1 Lucky Texan wrote:
I think we eventually were playing mostly correct. My wife had 56, i had 41.

many of these questions will be obvious to other players, but i have only played Dominion once and my wife has never played a deck-builder before.

1. when 'Return' is used in the rules, that means to either the core card stacks or the Pool return pile right?


Correct - core cards go back to one of the four core stacks, and pool cards go into the face-up pool returns pile.

Quote:
2. Are green extra, 'clean-up' 'draws' done before, or after drawing 6 cards? (may not matter, even if the discard pile needs to be shuffled into a new draw deck?)


After. The intention is that you take a look at the word you have in play, then say 'hmm, I'll be drawing an extra two cards this turn', then discard your hand and all the cards in play, then draw your new hand (in this case of eight cards).

Quote:
3. When a W Action says you may gain a 0 card and put it straight into play. Does that mean the card, if taken(that part seems optional) MUST be added to the announced word? or can the card go to the discard pile? or on top of the draw deck for the next Hand?


If you take a 0-cost card (you're correct that it's optional), then you must put it down on the table ('in play'). However, on page 2 of the Gameplay leaflet, when you declare your word you are allowed to put any cards you can't use back into your hand - so you're not forced to use the card you gained. However, there is no way to put the card straight into the discard pile or on top of the draw deck.

Quote:
4. If banked words are plurals, can singular forms be used by other players? vice-versa?


Absolutely! The only thing that counts is exact matches.

Quote:
5. When an action says; "You may return a card from your hand." Is your hand any hidden cards held to your chest PLUS all the cards you laid on the table? Since you don't actually announce your word until after Actions, is it fair to say every card you own, on the table PLUS in your 'hand' is your "HAND" ?


Your hand is all the cards that you're holding, and does not include cards that you have on the table.

(That said, I would never have a problem with a player saying 'whoops, I didn't need to play that penalty - is it okay if I take it back to hand so I can return it using my C?' I'm a firm believer in letting people take things back that haven't affected the state of play. However it would not be okay to play an Action cards, resolve the action, then put that card back in hand so you can return it using a different action.)

Quote:
6. K - "you may discard your draw deck, then take a card from your discard pile into your hand." I 'assume' one would want to be fairly certain there was little of value in the their draw deck at the moment they used this. right? PLUS, can you use the card chosen from the discard pile in the upcoming word Announcement? It seems so. I could also see combining this with a 'return' action to eliminate a penalty card in a 2-step action - right?


Generally speaking, discarding your draw deck is a good thing, because it means your cards are cycling faster. If you assume that each time you shuffle your deck the deck is slightly more powerful (because you've been buying better cards, employing a clever strategy, right!), shuffling more often is a good thing.

You can play the card that K grabs for you, and that's generally the way it's used. I often use K to fetch a C, because there are plenty of good CK words like LUCK and QUACKS, and because C's ability to return any card from hand or discard pile is super useful when every card you own is either in your hand or discard pile!

Quote:
7. Green cards, like Orange, must be used in the announced word to be "in play" correct?


Correct - any cards that you don't use in your word must be taken back into hand, so the Cleanup cards will only be resolved if they are part of your word.

Quote:
8. The end instructions do not seem to address what happens if the Start player is the first to achieve 7 banked words. Do other players begin last Word or do they get another 'normal' round? Could I get some expanded end-game explanation?


The 'has the game finished' check is done before each of the first player's turns, so if the first player banks his seventh word then all other players still get one more turn. The intention here is that every player gets the same number of turns in the game.

(The first player gets a small advantage in that it's possible for Reaction cards he buys in his 2nd (say) turn to be used against an opponent's 2nd turn Attacks, whereas the opponents who buy a Reaction on their 2nd turn will be too late to defend against the first player's 2nd turn Attack. The players who come later in turn order have slightly better control over the endgame.)
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Quote:
8. The end instructions do not seem to address what happens if the Start player is the first to achieve 7 banked words. Do other players begin last Word or do they get another 'normal' round? Could I get some expanded end-game explanation?


The 'has the game finished' check is done before each of the first player's turns, so if the first player banks his seventh word then all other players still get one more turn. The intention here is that every player gets the same number of turns in the game.

(The first player gets a small advantage in that it's possible for Reaction cards he buys in his 2nd (say) turn to be used against an opponent's 2nd turn Attacks, whereas the opponents who buy a Reaction on their 2nd turn will be too late to defend against the first player's 2nd turn Attack. The players who come later in turn order have slightly better control over the endgame.)


So, in my game, the first player (my wife) should still have drawn another hand, but wait for me to take a normal turn(BTW-it seems there can be a little simultaneous play as we often had most of our decision made while the other player was playing and she would sometimes already have her cards in play when i finished my play, is that typical?), which could mean banking my 7th word (I had 6) , playing Effects, Attacking her hand, etc., then, cleanup as normal. Then we both begin forming final words?

I might have had a little better score. My main problem was having a lot of penalties and no B cards. She had fewer penalties and 2 B cards. Luckily, she didn't challenge my Last word - 'wavepool' (I didn't purposefully cheat, wasn't sure about it though)- her last word was 'emergencies'.

We had huge draw decks, I see now we should have improved their 'value density' during play.

What is the range of typical scores you've seen?

Would the 1st player advantage be balanced out if, for their initial Hand only, they had a limit of 4 or 5 cards?

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1 Lucky Texan
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MUST you always activate blue, orange, yellow, green and black effects?

MUST you spend up to your precise score?
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Andrew Rowse
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1 Lucky Texan wrote:
So, in my game, the first player (my wife) should still have drawn another hand, but wait for me to take a normal turn(BTW-it seems there can be a little simultaneous play as we often had most of our decision made while the other player was playing and she would sometimes already have her cards in play when i finished my play, is that typical?), which could mean banking my 7th word (I had 6) , playing Effects, Attacking her hand, etc., then, cleanup as normal. Then we both begin forming final words?


Correct - it's tempting for the first player to not bother drawing a new hand (because the game is 'over' for them), but they should resist the temptation. It's important to know whether they have an L card in hand or any Penalties in the discard pile, in case any of their opponents play Attack cards.

Quote:
What is the range of typical scores you've seen?


Often in the 60s and 70s, but multiplayer scores can vary considerably because the length of the game is entirely dependent on when players start banking. If nobody makes an early break for the finish line, the banked words will often be up around the 12+ point mark, and the final scores will be massive. If somebody sneakily acquires exactly the cards they need for a great last word, then starts banking earlier than other players expect, they can potentially win the game with a sub-50 score.

Quote:
Would the 1st player advantage be balanced out if, for their initial Hand only, they had a limit of 4 or 5 cards?


Overall, I would say that the 1st player does not have an advantage over others - the potential extra defense against attack is balanced by potential reduced control of the endgame. In my testing, there was no clear correlation between player order and the winner.
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Andrew Rowse
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1 Lucky Texan wrote:
MUST you always activate blue, orange, yellow, green and black effects?


Short answer - Yes.

However, all Action (blue) cards say 'may' in their effect, so when you play and resolve them, you can choose not to take advantage of the effect. If the ability is 'you may A then B', like the K card, you cannot choose to just do A or B - you must do both.

Attack (orange) cards always resolve if they're in a word. You can't choose not to use them.

The Reaction (yellow) card resolves if you choose to show it when an opponent's Attack is resolved - but you can choose not to show it if you like.

The effects on Cleanup (green) cards are mandatory, but note that the F card contains the word 'may', so you can choose not to do anything when you resolve it if you like. The 'draw 1 extra card' instructions must be followed.

The End of the Game (black) cards are similarly mandatory. The N and P cards always give you points if you have them in your deck, and you're not allowed to choose not to take them. The B card has 'may' and 'up to' in its ability, so you can return 0, 1 or 2 cards for each B you own.

Quote:
MUST you spend up to your precise score?


You must buy at least one card each turn, unless there is absolutely nothing left in the core and there's nothing in the pool that you can afford. You don't have to spend all your points though - any left over just get lost.
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Does the L shield you from a player with BOTH the M and Z in their word?


nevermind...
just saw the phrasing "ignore any and all attacks" in the Setup portion of the rules.
 
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KAndrw wrote:
1 Lucky Texan wrote:
MUST you always activate blue, orange, yellow, green and black effects?


Short answer - Yes.

If the ability is 'you may A then B', like the K card, you cannot choose to just do A or B - you must do both.


I assume the blue 'half' of R and J can be used separately and the green ability ignored? But to use the the green ability, they MUST form part of the announced word?
 
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1 Lucky Texan wrote:
KAndrw wrote:
1 Lucky Texan wrote:
MUST you always activate blue, orange, yellow, green and black effects?


Short answer - Yes.

If the ability is 'you may A then B', like the K card, you cannot choose to just do A or B - you must do both.


I assume the blue 'half' of R and J can be used separately and the green ability ignored? But to use the the green ability, they MUST form part of the announced word?


Yep
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I guess I still get confused about the hierarchy and the differences between 'hand' , 'in play', etc. sometimes.

Quote:
Quote:
3. When a W Action says you may gain a 0 card and put it straight into play. Does that mean the card, if taken(that part seems optional) MUST be added to the announced word? or can the card go to the discard pile? or on top of the draw deck for the next Hand?


If you take a 0-cost card (you're correct that it's optional), then you must put it down on the table ('in play'). However, on page 2 of the Gameplay leaflet, when you declare your word you are allowed to put any cards you can't use back into your hand - so you're not forced to use the card you gained. However, there is no way to put the card straight into the discard pile or on top of the draw deck.



Is it correct to say, any action that puts a card back into your empty hand negates the xtra 1 point for an empty hand? Loss of the extra point becomes part of the decision as to the benefit gained from the 'action'?



 
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