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El Grande» Forums » Rules

Subject: Veto during special scoring? rss

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Jim Cote
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If a player is executing "Score all '4' regions", can you use Veto to stop the scoring part way through? If so, do you execute scoring in the same order as a normal scoring round, or does the player with the action card choose?
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Joe Grundy
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The "Score all '4' regions" should be executed in the normal order of a scoring round. As far as I can see this only makes a difference if someone might want to Veto, but it's technically the case all the time.

The Veto is allowed to interupt a special action at any point.

So in combination, scoring all the '4' regions happens in normal region sequence up until the Veto player says stop.
 
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Rob Flowers

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A very good question. I can see a case for it either way.

If one were to allow it (since the rulebook clearly indicates you can veto partial actions), I would do it in order of the scoring track.

However, for the El Grande tournament I run at WBC, I decided (as of about a week ago) to rule that only Intrigue cards can be interrupted, since that's the only clear example that is given in the book. (I'd much rather prohibit any vetos of partial actions, and instead let the active player work out his move with the Veto holder or have it all cancelled.)

For now, I've decided that only allowing Intrigue actions to be interrupted would be easier than making a longer list of which cards can or cannot be partially vetoed.

Any feedback appreciated, though, I'm open to changing my mind if it makes sense without unduly complicating things.
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Joe Grundy
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Epworthian wrote:
A very good question. I can see a case for it either way.

...

For now, I've decided that only allowing Intrigue actions to be interrupted would be easier than making a longer list of which cards can or cannot be partially vetoed.

Any feedback appreciated, though, I'm open to changing my mind if it makes sense without unduly complicating things.
The El Grande rules are specific enough that I strongly expect if they meant you can Veto only Intrigue cards then that's what they would have said. But instead

"You can prevent one special action during this round or the next round." There are lots of references to preventing "special actions", and nothing to contradict this to suggest it should only be Intrigue cards.

Including: "You may only prevent a special action if you hold the Veto! card and the special action is not yet complete."

Then: "You may also prevent only part of a special action", then an example of how to prevent part of a Special Action. There is no example of preventing a full special action at all, since I guess that was not needed. The example is to emphasise that a partial special action may be prevented, and the example would have been chosen because it's easiest to be clear.

This is also the only reason apart from encouraging accuracy why Special Scoring has to follow a sequence at all, and it's perfectly clear here what interrupting part way through would do.

Moving a mobile scoreboard, moving the King, moving the Grande, retrieving a Power Card, are all atomic actions so can't be interrupted part way through.


So only one card has any potential confusion at all. In the 4 stack:
"Choose a region. Your fellow players must move all their Caballeros out of this region to different regions. Decide secretly!"

Here there is no specified sequence I can see. I can think of three interpretations, and I recall this even happening once. I'll open a new rules question.
 
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fer moros
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thanks
very clear and specially adhered to the rules...

... yet somehow, once the game is on the table, still discrepances appear which i dont know how to resolve ...
 
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Rob Flowers

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Quote:
So only one card has any potential confusion at all. In the 4 stack:
"Choose a region. Your fellow players must move all their Caballeros out of this region to different regions. Decide secretly!"


I think there are a fex other cards open to different interpretations.

For example, the scoring card in which each player chooses a region to score with their dial. Is this treated as atomic, or can the veto player decide to veto (in scoring order) after he's seen the choices?

How about the Decay of Authority / King Returns cards. Are those done in player order, or are they considered to all happen at the same time?

And while I can understand the logic of using the scoring track to determine how Veto cards affect scoring cards, it just doesn't sit well with me that this would now make some 4 and 5 regions better than others. Although perhaps they already are, so I shouldn't be complaining about that. (the 5/4/1 better than the 5/3/1)

Sigh, perhaps I'll have to make a list after all.
 
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Joe Grundy
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Epworthian wrote:
For example, the scoring card in which each player chooses a region to score with their dial. Is this treated as atomic, or can the veto player decide to veto (in scoring order) after he's seen the choices?
Even this scoring is done in sequence of the score track.

Epworthian wrote:
How about the Decay of Authority / King Returns cards. Are those done in player order, or are they considered to all happen at the same time?
OMG I forgot to cross check the rest of the 2 stack.

"The King returns!" rules specify a player order, clockwise starting from the player on the left of the player who played the card.

I would say, on the same basis as the fuller discussion on the eviction card, "Decay of Authority" would be atomic, as would the Provinces cards where players secretly choose which region to abandon.

Again, I can see a case for a house rule that the action is, as with King Returns, taken clockwise from the left of the player who played the card. Alternatively you could claim the regions are always processed in the score track order. Meh... make a house rule.

Epworthian wrote:
And while I can understand the logic of using the scoring track to determine how Veto cards affect scoring cards, it just doesn't sit well with me that this would now make some 4 and 5 regions better than others. Although perhaps they already are, so I shouldn't be complaining about that. (the 5/4/1 better than the 5/3/1)
Dem's da breaks kid. Some regions are more worth having than others, and it's not just about the scoring track.

And just to make this worse, I just thought of another perfectly sensible interpretation. Maybe the Veto! player can explictly choose which bits of a simultaneous action go ahead.

I've sent a question to Rio Grande.
 
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Jim Cote
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jgrundy wrote:
Maybe the Veto! player can explictly choose which bits of a simultaneous action go ahead.


This "line item veto" style seems like the worst possible method. It makes them way too powerful. I think I'd rather remove the veto cards from the deck than do that.
 
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Rob Flowers

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Joe, let me know if Rio Grande gets back to you.

Ok, I've consolidated it to the following (and chosen one option each for the couple of cards in question)

"Cards that may be interrupted:

1) Intrigue Cards in "1" stack - order of cab movement determined by active player
2) Decay of Authority and The King Returns in "2" stack - cabs are removed in seat order starting to left of active player
3) Score 4s, score 5s, score 6 and 7s, and score first place in all regions, in "3" stack - regions scored in scoring round order
4) Evict in "4" stack - cabs are moved in seat order starting to left of active player
5) Each player picks a region to score in "4" stack - regions scored in scoring round order

All other action cards are instantaneous and may not be partially vetoed."

That may be concise enough for me to use at a tournament without confusing the heck out of people.




 
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Joe Grundy
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Looks fine to me. Not necessarily exactly how I'd play it but certainly clear enough and not objectionable.
 
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