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Subject: Bee, Bee, Beetle, Beetle... Game over? rss

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Joe West
United States
Ypsilanti
Michigan
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I like to try out crazy strategies when playing board games to see what works and what doesn't. I played Hive last night and here is how the first seven moves went:
1. White bee
2. Black bee
3. White beetle
4. Black beetle
5. White beetle moves on top of white bee
6. Black beetle moves on top of black bee
7. White beetle moves on top of black beetle (and black bee).

Then my friend and I looked at each other and said "What now?" Black could not play another piece because there were no "black" pieces left to play adjacent to. We ultimately decided to start over and avoid this situation...

So what is your take? Were those seven moves legal? What should be the result? The rules don't seem to have a general "if you can't play a piece, you lose" catch all, but maybe there should be one. I am interested in hearing your thoughts.
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Nate Straight

Covington
Louisiana
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I believe the rule is that if you cannot place or move a piece, you simply pass your turn and your opponent continues to place and move his pieces until you, once again, have the ability to place or move one of your own.

In your particular example, white would have easily won, since he could have simply continued to place new pieces and move them into position around black's bee, without ever giving black a chance to place or move.
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Joe West
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Thanks for your thoughts. I can't say that I have ever faced a situation before where one person couldn't legally play a piece, and definitely have never faced a situation such as this where the forced-pass rule would allow one player to play five pieces in a row to surround the opponent's queen. Interesting stuff!
 
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james napoli
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Westwood
New Jersey
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actually, when i first learned this game, i was in total lockdown, couldnt move, or place any tiles for a few turns...and obviously lost soon after.
 
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Flying Arrow
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Pennsylvania
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I would have thought that if you couldn't move you automatically lost.
 
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Dan Dolan
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Highland Lakes
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Why on earth would you ever start a game with a Bee as your first placement? Unless of course you're trying to figure out how to lose as quickly as possible.

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Mark Ballinger
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Seattle
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Phlegm wrote:
Why on earth would you ever start a game with a Bee as your first placement? Unless of course you're trying to figure out how to lose as quickly as possible.



It's actually a very aggressive opening. If your opponent then drops a bee to counter the game will usually be a draw. But, if not, you have a good chance of winning.

Give it a try!
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Francisco Rodríguez
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And what happens in the next case?:

1) Player A places white beetle.
2) Player B places any black insect.
3) Player A moves the white beetle on top of the black insect.
4) Player B cannot move nor place new insects, so player A is free to place whatever insects he wants before releasing player B.
 
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Francisco Rodríguez
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I'm sorry, I didn't realize this question was already posted here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/268328/beetle-rush-abuse

Thank you anyway.
 
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J P
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San Leandro
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Maybe I'm just not picturing this in my head well, but the rules state that the beetle must be placed in a way that it does not touch the opposite color bee - meaning that it would take at least one movement where the beetle is adjacent to the opposing bee before the beetle can cover it. Since that's the case, I'm having a hard time thinking about how the opposite side can NOT have another bug out continue placing?
 
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H Jacobs
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During tournaments the rule that you cannot place a Queen Bee on your first move is often being used.

It is also used at Boardspace:

http://www.boardspace.net/english/about_hive.html

H
 
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Yannick Huijsman
Netherlands
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Cormac wrote:
And what happens in the next case?:

1) Player A places white beetle.
2) Player B places any black insect.
3) Player A moves the white beetle on top of the black insect.
4) Player B cannot move nor place new insects, so player A is free to place whatever insects he wants before releasing player B.

You may not move pieces until your Queen Bee has been placed, so 3) would be an illegal move.
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Keith S.
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Vassoul wrote:
I like to try out crazy strategies when playing board games to see what works and what doesn't. I played Hive last night and here is how the first seven moves went:
1. White bee
2. Black bee
3. White beetle
4. Black beetle
5. White beetle moves on top of white bee
6. Black beetle moves on top of black bee
7. White beetle moves on top of black beetle (and black bee).

Then my friend and I looked at each other and said "What now?" Black could not play another piece because there were no "black" pieces left to play adjacent to. We ultimately decided to start over and avoid this situation...

So what is your take? Were those seven moves legal? What should be the result? The rules don't seem to have a general "if you can't play a piece, you lose" catch all, but maybe there should be one. I am interested in hearing your thoughts.


Totally legal. Looks like the "fool's mate" of Hive. The "out" is for Black to not crawl on top of their Bee in answer to White having done so. This simple abstinence turns a "fools mate" into a powerful deterrent; if White covers Black's Bee with their Beetle on any future turn (without first trapping Black's Beetle), then Black can simply crawl atop or over White's Beetle, and you're pretty much back to square one but with Black having more options (White pretty much has to play another piece, while Black can either place a piece or cover the White Bee).

There is a rule that if one player cannot make any legal move, he loses his turn and his opponent may make additional moves until a legal move for the stuck player becomes available. It's not in my older 3rd edition pamphlet, but the PDF version at http://www.gen42.com/downloads/rules/Hive_Rules.pdf states the rule clearly on the last page.

Lastly, the "tournament rule" (the Bee cannot be either player's first move), though not documented in the official rules, is part of the official Hive iPhone game and is well-known elsewhere. It would mean this scenario simply cannot happen as the Bee won't be placed until the second or third turn (it's still a bad move to be forced to play your Bee on the fourth turn).
 
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