The Hotness
Games|People|Company
The Hotness has gone cold...
Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Strategy

Subject: When to Assault?? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Alan Kaiser
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
An assault lets you move into almost any adjacent hex and in doing so prevents the opponent from returning op fire and therefore is the primary means of kicking an enemy unit/stack out of a hex since a move order doesn't allow you to enter an enemy hex. However, assaulting a hex seems to be such a difficult task that it must require a certain amount of preparation/card accumulation to successfully pull it off. And given the number of cards that can potentially come into play when attempting to pull off an assault it also becomes a complicated task trying to figure out when an assault is a good idea especially since a failed assault will usually set you back a sack of units from the melee. It seems the primary problem of an assault is that, unless you are already adjacent to an enemy unit, you can't assault a hex in a single turn (unless you have a hero). That is correct isn't it?? I have assumed so because of the rule about not issuing more than one order to a unit in a turn.

So how does one pull off a successful assault? I'd love to hear some ideas and constructive use of different cards. Holding grenade, smoke or ambush cards certainly helps but it seems there are too many options to set some nice rule of thumb on when to do this order. So let's turn it around and say you have some units near (at least 2 hexes away) an enemy hex that you want to take from the enemy. That hex is occupied by enemy units and let's say it's worth a decent chunk of victory points. And you have an assault card in your hand. When shouldn't you assault?? What combination of your units, the enemies units, terrain and cards in your hand would make you not play the assault card in an attempt to take that hex?

And on a related note, the rules for melee mention that overstacking can be an advantage in melee (the grey box on p.11 at the end of the assault section). It seems obvious that this would be the case but wouldn't this require two seperate assault cards played on two different stacks of units adjacent to an enemy occupied hex? It seems the chances of getting the cards necessary to pull of something like that would make it a pretty rare event. First you'd have to get your units to an adjacent hex successfully (using smoke or various other cards) and then get them both into the adjacent hex the folowing turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
alkaiser wrote:
And on a related note, the rules for melee mention that overstacking can be an advantage in melee (the grey box on p.11 at the end of the assault section). It seems obvious that this would be the case but wouldn't this require two seperate assault cards played on two different stacks of units adjacent to an enemy occupied hex? It seems the chances of getting the cards necessary to pull of something like that would make it a pretty rare event. First you'd have to get your units to an adjacent hex successfully (using smoke or various other cards) and then get them both into the adjacent hex the folowing turn.

I'm not practiced enough to address the rest of the post, but I may be able to help here. You can Advance more than 1 unit into an enemy hex in the same action by activating a leader who then activates units that are all adjacent to the hex about to be advanced into.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kaiser
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
markus_kt wrote:

I'm not practiced enough to address the rest of the post, but I may be able to help here. You can Advance more than 1 unit into an enemy hex in the same action by activating a leader who then activates units that are all adjacent to the hex about to be advanced into.


Ahhh, yes. I'd forgotten about that. I must just be an idiot since I knew you could do that with a move order so why not an assault order!.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Jensen
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"Advance", not "Assault" (I at first thought that you were referring to the Assault Fire Action. LOL)

The ideal way to Advance into a winnable Melee is to first break the opposing units with stack A, Move adjacent to the opposing units with stack B (ostensibly throwing Smoke into the adjacent hex first), then on the following Turn - hopefully with the opposing units still broken - Advance in for Melee.

Of course, getting this ideal sequence off is going to be rare so you're going to have to improvise at one or more points along the way.

As you can imagine, many things can go wrong before even the first part goes right. Welcome to combat, my friend! cool
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
alkaiser wrote:
Ahhh, yes. I'd forgotten about that. I must just be an idiot since I knew you could do that with a move order so why not an assault order!.


I can't keep track of the things I've gotten wrong in this and other games.

An easy way to remember this particular thing is that you can activate a leader with any order, and that leader can then activate all the friendly non-leader units in its command range.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Jensen
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
you can activate a leader with any order


To head off any confusion this statement may create, its not entirely accurate: an Artillery Denied, Command Confusion, Recover or Rout Order will never activate a Leader (or any unit for that matter).

Just being anal. Nothing to see here. Move along.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
you can activate a leader with any order


To head off any confusion this statement may create, its not entirely accurate: an Artillery Denied, Command Confusion, Recover or Rout Order will never activate a Leader (or any unit for that matter).

Just being anal. Nothing to see here. Move along.

You know, before I typed my answer, I was thinking about orders that activate players (I'd forgotten Artillery Denied), but of course forgot by the time I actually got around to posting. shake
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Jensen
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Apropos of absolutely nothing being discussed here, did you create that avatar yourself, Mark? I especially like the subtle "oh, crap!" as the blue infantry is outflanked by the cav. Good stuff. cool
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jake Baker
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tricks learned on winning a melee from hard experience:

1) Bring boxed firepower. Boxed firepower = +1 FP in melee.

2) Bring a leader, since the leader's leader rating is applied to each friendly unit's FP.

3) Hold the initiative card. There's almost nothing like the sinking feeling when your 2 leader, a squad, a team, and two weapons all visit the eliminated box because probability hates you.

4) That fire team Chad notes that layed down fire while you were moving into contact with the enemy should fire again in the same turn that you enter melee. Even a single suppressed enemy unit gives you another advantage.

5) It is easier to win melee as the Attacker; more cards in your hand means more opportunity to be holding Ambush cards. Likewise, it is more risky for the defender to enter into melee because of the increased chance his opponent holds Ambush cards.

6) Never cozy up to the enemy without an Ambush card in your hand, because you don't know if your opponent is also holding one (or three).

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad Jensen wrote:
Apropos of absolutely nothing being discussed here, did you create that avatar yourself, Mark? I especially like the subtle "oh, crap!" as the blue infantry is outflanked by the cav. Good stuff. cool

Thanks, Chad. Yup, I made it using Brian Mullin's cyberboard gamebox as the source for the graphics, and used Photoshop and Imageready to edit the images and create the animation. I keep wondering if the "oh, crap!" exclamation point goes by too quickly, but people do seem to see it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tanuki wrote:
Bring boxed firepower. Boxed firepower = +1 FP in melee.

And just remember that weapons with boxed firepower CAN'T be used in melee. I got that wrong in my first game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kaiser
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
markus_kt wrote:

And just remember that weapons with boxed firepower CAN'T be used in melee. I got that wrong in my first game.


I thought it was weapons couldn't be used in melee, period. Although maybe those are the same thing, are all weapons boxed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Christopher
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
alkaiser wrote:
I thought it was weapons couldn't be used in melee, period. Although maybe those are the same thing, are all weapons boxed?


Right, none can. I was just hoping to stress that if you're going into a melee and you have, say, a German LMG in that melee (that one has a boxed FP, IIRC), it can't be used to add to your firepower.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gregory Smith
United States
Newark
California
flag msg tools
badge
IGNITION - bringing enlightenment where once all was dark
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some really good points have been raised about using assaults and winning melees. I wanted to add to Chad's discussion of first getting close using support fire suppressing or breaking units in the target hex, or using smoke. As has been mentioned elsewhere, sometimes you can play multiple move cards to draw out the fire cards. As attacker you have 6 cards to the defender's 4 so this is not too difficult to do. I've used this successfully in scenario 6 (I hope I'm remembering the scenario number correctly) which is the one where the Russians significantly outnumber the Germans, and exit VP are doubled. Essentially I moved to cover near a portion of the thin German line, then made a Russian human wave attack (multiple move cards) to cross the remaining ground quickly and enter melee on the next turn with an advance I was holding. I lost a few squads, but killed all the Germans attacked (1-1 trades = happy Russian) which cleared the way to the board edge on one flank.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Jensen
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jake spouts forth a lot of good info a few posts up....

#7 could be: If your opponent cozies up to you and you don't have the means to sway a Melee your way (Initiative; Ambush; large FP) leave the hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antigonus Monophthalmus
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Rule of thumb #1: I never assault without the Initiative when I'm going in with a leader, ever. Unless something really amazingly lucky happens or my opponent makes a huge mistake, even a 1/12 chance is too much to risk losing my level 2 leader. They're too valuable to lose on a crappy roll of the die.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BagpipeDan wrote:
Rule of thumb #1: I never assault without the Initiative when I'm going in with a leader, ever. Unless something really amazingly lucky happens or my opponent makes a huge mistake, even a 1/12 chance is too much to risk losing my level 2 leader. They're too valuable to lose on a crappy roll of the die.


I don't really agree with that. There are so many random bad (or good) things that can happen to you, this is just one more. I don't think you can play so ultraconservatively, and do well against someone who's taking calculated risks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kaiser
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
BagpipeDan wrote:
Rule of thumb #1: I never assault without the Initiative when I'm going in with a leader, ever. Unless something really amazingly lucky happens or my opponent makes a huge mistake, even a 1/12 chance is too much to risk losing my level 2 leader. They're too valuable to lose on a crappy roll of the die.


I don't really agree with that. There are so many random bad (or good) things that can happen to you, this is just one more. I don't think you can play so ultraconservatively, and do well against someone who's taking calculated risks.


Yea, I agree that always approaching the situation like that would be too conservative. If the hex contains troops that you'd like to get out of the way but it's mid game and they aren't holding a VP location then it's probably not a priority. But if it's toward the end of the game and the hex contains enough VPs that it would put you in the lead then why not. Not to mention that if you always played this way then that is something your opponent may pick up on and use to his advantage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carlos O.
Spain
Madrid
Madrid
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad Jensen wrote:
"Advance", not "Assault" (I at first thought that you were referring to the Assault Fire Action. LOL)

The ideal way to Advance into a winnable Melee is to first break the opposing units with stack A, Move adjacent to the opposing units with stack B (ostensibly throwing Smoke into the adjacent hex first), then on the following Turn - hopefully with the opposing units still broken - Advance in for Melee.

Of course, getting this ideal sequence off is going to be rare so you're going to have to improvise at one or more points along the way.

As you can imagine, many things can go wrong before even the first part goes right. Welcome to combat, my friend! cool


I would take this as canon ideal operation. This is the same stunt I played in Close Combat: for instance, approach a support MG from one side and the assaulting squad from the other. This should work pinning down the units in the target hex while you advanced on them. The again, you have to work with the units yo have...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Wolf
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't forget, that if you do a two-pronged assault, and are holding an Ambush action, that's your best bet. If the supporting squad (with, say and MG) can break the squad holding a hex, playing Ambush on your Advance removes your opponent automatically, no die roll required!

Of course, this only works when attacking a hex with a lone unit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MKUltra wrote:
Don't forget, that if you do a two-pronged assault, and are holding an Ambush action, that's your best bet. If the supporting squad (with, say and MG) can break the squad holding a hex, playing Ambush on your Advance removes your opponent automatically, no die roll required!


Of course, this still risks losing some or all of your own force, if your opponent has enough Ambush cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Wolf
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
MKUltra wrote:
Don't forget, that if you do a two-pronged assault, and are holding an Ambush action, that's your best bet. If the supporting squad (with, say and MG) can break the squad holding a hex, playing Ambush on your Advance removes your opponent automatically, no die roll required!


Of course, this still risks losing some or all of your own force, if your opponent has enough Ambush cards.


True, but if you go in with an unbroken unit, your worst-case scenario is that he breaks your unit but you still take the hex. The odds of someone holding multiple ambush cards are low enough to take that risk every time, IMO.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MKUltra wrote:
True, but if you go in with an unbroken unit, your worst-case scenario is that he breaks your unit but you still take the hex.


No, the worst case is that he breaks you twice and you're eliminated (unless you start with an unbroken squad and play Light Wounds, in which case it would take three Ambush cards to completely eliminate you).

Quote:
The odds of someone holding multiple ambush cards are low enough to take that risk every time, IMO.


I totally disagree. It happens a lot. In two scenarios that I played yesterday, I think there were at least 4 or 5 melees in which at least one player had at least two Ambush cards. Once, I had three of them.

To determine the "odds" that your opponent has multiple Ambush cards, you have to consider your opponent's hand size, how many cards he has been discarding or saving, how long it has been since the last melee, how important a melee is likely to be in this game and so how likely he is to go out of his way to save Ambush cards, etc., etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kaiser
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:

Quote:
The odds of someone holding multiple ambush cards are low enough to take that risk every time, IMO.


I totally disagree. It happens a lot. In two scenarios that I played yesterday, I think there were at least 4 or 5 melees in which at least one player had at least two Ambush cards. Once, I had three of them.


Each deck has 6 ambush cards. And given their potency, if there was any chance in the near future of a melee occuring, I'd bet a lot of players will hang onto them. So that should certainly increase the odds of someone holding more than one.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Jensen
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Each deck has 6 ambush cards. And given their potency, if there was any chance in the near future of a melee occuring, I'd bet a lot of players will hang onto them. So that should certainly increase the odds of someone holding more than one.


Yup.

[eloquent, ain't I?]
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.