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Subject: About prices rss

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Federico Mar
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I've read here and on KS a lot of complaints regarding the fact that the add-on costs 7 €uros and that it should be included in the "Explorer" pledge (the 89 €uro bundle).
Personally, even though I don't like the technique of announcing an add-on that adds content to the game during the KS campaign (why not telling in advance? You are just scaring people now, just say how many add-ons there will be and at what prices and then announce the contents of them later) I believe prices are not so shockingly high.

The designers have worked for 2 years with the risk of not getting any return and now they will have to work for another year (plus the costs of all the other people involved like lawyers, accountant, taxes, marketing, pr, production etc.).

Therefore at €uro 500.000 I would say the project is barely funded if you consider the cost of 3 years of work of 2 skilled designers. Do you really think at €uro 50.000 they would have made any money producing this game?

Of course they will most likely take it to retail and make more money but a big chunk of the price will be eaten by distribution and you don't know how much and when you will make that money (remember they are developers and publishers of the game).

With regards to the add-on of 30 cards at 7 €uro, you all count the cards to compare the cost but it has no sense, the big cost here is designing the game mechanic and drawing the cards. It's still probably good money for the developers but it's well deserved considering that the base game is proportionally far less profitable.

TLDR: If you want skilled people to invest their time in making games you have to pay them well!
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Personally, I'm an all-or-nothing guy. I can sometimes swallow a big single pledge, but once I start getting nickle and dimed with add-ons I'm out. Ghostbusters kickstarter was a great example of this.
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Phil McDonald
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It's only 5 pounds and I'm sure I will end up buying it, but I agree on the nickle and dime comment. I hate in-app purchases on ios games and it's the same mentality.

I don't know about these guys, but most KS designers have day jobs, so they're not trying to get a couple of years salary out of a game. If that were possible we would be even more inundated with crowdfunding, 90% of which is already garbage.

This game looks like it's going to be one of the success stories, commercially and gameplay-wise though.

This is a big outlay game, cash up front a year in advance. I hope the card-thickness doesn't disappoint as it so often does with KS games. Take my money, give me decent quality components and hit me for more cash later when I've seen the quality. Sleeves do not justify flimsy cards.
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Peter Schott
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I don't have a problem with paying them for their time in developing the game, but I tend to agree with Jonny that too many of these will really end up feeling as if we're being milked for more money. The campaign is already relatively high cost for a card game and seeing these add-ons that "may not hit retail" isn't really helpful for giving backers a good feeling that these will be available later if we want them.

I really like the look of the first add-on announced, but don't think that I'll be adding any of them at this time. I just hope they _will_ be available at retail later. I'm already not really happy about all of the KS-exclusive content. I would prefer that they have some sort of delayed option for people to get the content eventually but WELL after the KS is delivered to backers. Exclusives really add to the feel of not having the whole game if you missed the campaign, especially in this case where they are really part of the game for the most part.

Currently backing because the game looks promising, but if I start feeling like they're just trying to get more money with add-ons, I may back out as well. It's not that I don't think they deserve to be paid, but I don't want to feel like they're just trying to get more and more from us. Use the campaign to focus on the campaign, not add-ons.
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Donny Behne
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Expansions cost money. The pricing of the base pledge includes the expansions you get and the base game. We've also already unlocked hundreds of cards for free, and will likely unlock many more. To ask for a little more for ANOTHER expansion seems perfectly reasonable.
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Bruno Sautter
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philmcd wrote:
It's only 5 pounds and I'm sure I will end up buying it, but I agree on the nickle and dime comment. I hate in-app purchases on ios games and it's the same mentality.

I don't know about these guys, but most KS designers have day jobs, so they're not trying to get a couple of years salary out of a game. If that were possible we would be even more inundated with crowdfunding, 90% of which is already garbage.

This game looks like it's going to be one of the success stories, commercially and gameplay-wise though.

This is a big outlay game, cash up front a year in advance. I hope the card-thickness doesn't disappoint as it so often does with KS games. Take my money, give me decent quality components and hit me for more cash later when I've seen the quality. Sleeves do not justify flimsy cards.


Hello Phil,

We expect cards to be high-quality: between 300 and 320 g/sqm.

Designing The 7th Continent has been our daily job for the past two years (and 2016 as well, most likely ).

Thanks

Bruno
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Phil McDonald
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BrunoS wrote:
philmcd wrote:
It's only 5 pounds and I'm sure I will end up buying it, but I agree on the nickle and dime comment. I hate in-app purchases on ios games and it's the same mentality.

I don't know about these guys, but most KS designers have day jobs, so they're not trying to get a couple of years salary out of a game. If that were possible we would be even more inundated with crowdfunding, 90% of which is already garbage.

This game looks like it's going to be one of the success stories, commercially and gameplay-wise though.

This is a big outlay game, cash up front a year in advance. I hope the card-thickness doesn't disappoint as it so often does with KS games. Take my money, give me decent quality components and hit me for more cash later when I've seen the quality. Sleeves do not justify flimsy cards.


Hello Phil,

We expect cards to be high-quality: between 300 and 320 g/sqm.

Designing The 7th Continent has been our daily job for the past two years (and 2016 as well, most likely ).

Thanks

Bruno


Hi Bruno

Congrats on designing the KS game that has convinced me to not banish KS games from my purchasing. I've had some very poor quality and under-tested games so far, with very poor proof-reading and badly written rulebooks. Card stock has been my biggest and most consistent gripe. I hate sleeves and simply will not use them.

I don't know the gsm equivalent, but playing card quality should be the minimum, most games are WAY short of that these days and given the price of designer games it does not endear them to me.

Your game looks awesome and I can't wait to play it.
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Fabian
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jonnylawless wrote:
Personally, I'm an all-or-nothing guy. I can sometimes swallow a big single pledge, but once I start getting nickle and dimed with add-ons I'm out. Ghostbusters kickstarter was a great example of this.


100% agree.
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Donny Behne
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philmcd wrote:


I don't know the gsm equivalent, but playing card quality should be the minimum, most games are WAY short of that these days and given the price of designer games it does not endear them to me.


I ordered the fan-made expansion to Sentinels of the Multiverse from Artscow (maybe Printer Studio, can't recall right now) and got it on 315 gsm cards with a linen finish and, to this day, they are still the best cards I've ever had a game printed on. Better than any published game on my shelf. They are sturdy, easy to shuffle, and impervious to damage. I expect anything with 10-20 gsm of this to be acceptable.
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Jason Brown
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I heart add-ons! They give me the option to expand on something I'm really excited about or forgo something I could do without. CMoN Campaigns are full of them and I think it's great being able to decide what I do and don't want.

I honestly don't understand how people will cancel an entire pledge over something they don't have to get. It's like not buying a car because the LS package isn't included in the base price.
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Matt Simpson
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I heart add-ons! They give me the option to expand on something I'm really excited about or forgo something I could do without. CMoN Campaigns are full of them and I think it's great being able to decide what I do and don't want.

I honestly don't understand how people will cancel an entire pledge over something they don't have to get. It's like not buying a car because the LS package isn't included in the base price.


When you buy a car, do you like the part where you agree on a price (we'll say $10,000 + tags etc) and you're ready to sign the documents. Then they bring out the book of all the stuff you can add onto the car: fancy rims, paint protection, extended warranty, splash guards, and more. Buy them now or they'll be more later! That's a bit how surprise add ons feel for this, just trying to get a couple more things out of you since you're already committed and it's "not that much more."

Would just be nice to have all the add ons up front, the expansions already felt like a big chunk addition.
 
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coldkorn wrote:
That's a bit how surprise add ons feel for this, just trying to get a couple more things out of you since you're already committed and it's "not that much more."


You aren't committed. You can back the project, or not, until it concludes.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
That's a bit how surprise add ons feel for this, just trying to get a couple more things out of you since you're already committed and it's "not that much more."


You aren't committed. You can back the project, or not, until it concludes.


I mean committed more in the sense of "oh, I'm definitely getting that." I already decided I was getting the game, so I am "committed" to it.
 
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David desJardins
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coldkorn wrote:
I mean committed more in the sense of "oh, I'm definitely getting that." I already decided I was getting the game, so I am "committed" to it.


Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.
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Oof. Are lots of add-ons being revealed now? I am on the fence whether to back this one, but if it starts bloating up with optional add-ons, it will be a definite pass for me. I'm not good at buying "part" of something. It's one of my faults, but thankfully one of my strengths is the ability to become indignant and refuse to spend money.
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Matt Simpson
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DaviddesJ wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
I mean committed more in the sense of "oh, I'm definitely getting that." I already decided I was getting the game, so I am "committed" to it.


Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.


Shouldn't the full scope of the project be revealed when the campaign kicks off? Stretch goals typically aren't a factor for me when deciding to back. I read the concept, watched a preview video and Rahdo's video before the campaign. Innovative, original coop game sounded up the alley for games my wife and I like. The price for the base with 3 xps plus mystery shipping is steeper than we'd normally pay, but thought it would be great for us.
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Matt Simpson
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DavidT wrote:
Oof. Are lots of add-ons being revealed now? I am on the fence whether to back this one, but if it starts bloating up with optional add-ons, it will be a definite pass for me. I'm not good at buying "part" of something. It's one of my faults, but thankfully one of my strengths is the ability to become indignant and refuse to spend money.


Just one currently, but seems more may be on the way
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David desJardins
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coldkorn wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.


Shouldn't the full scope of the project be revealed when the campaign kicks off?


No, probably not. There are lots of good reasons for revealing the full scope of the project over time, and expanding it as demand supports a larger scope. It wouldn't make any sense to announce scads of add-ons if the core game is not even funded. The progressive unveiling of a larger and larger project is also deeply motivating and exciting to most people. The fact that you personally don't like it is still only one small point.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.


Shouldn't the full scope of the project be revealed when the campaign kicks off?


No, probably not. There are lots of good reasons for revealing the full scope of the project over time, and expanding it as demand supports a larger scope. It wouldn't make any sense to announce scads of add-ons if the core game is not even funded. The progressive unveiling of a larger and larger project is also deeply motivating and exciting to most people. The fact that you personally don't like it is still only one small point.


and based on how people seem clearly motivated, many might have just never backed the game if there were too many add-ons to start. if the goal was the maximize pledge money, the slow roll of add-ons is probably effective.
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coldkorn wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
I mean committed more in the sense of "oh, I'm definitely getting that." I already decided I was getting the game, so I am "committed" to it.


Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.


Shouldn't the full scope of the project be revealed when the campaign kicks off? Stretch goals typically aren't a factor for me when deciding to back. I read the concept, watched a preview video and Rahdo's video before the campaign. Innovative, original coop game sounded up the alley for games my wife and I like. The price for the base with 3 xps plus mystery shipping is steeper than we'd normally pay, but thought it would be great for us.


Not necessarily. Many of the options planned for by creators are only available at a certain level of success. I've seen campaigns doomed by posting SGs way too far in advance that show people how much they won't get. You read the same comments there that you see in this thread, only BGGers lamenting that it's not worth backing because it will never reach x goal.

I'm in the camp to back the game if you like it. The game will change as the campaign progresses. If you want to add bells and whistles, do so. If not, I honestly don't see how not getting a few cards out of more than 1,000 would prevent you from getting it. I backed Zombicide: Black Plague and added on about 5 or 6 available options. Some folks went all-in and spent over $300, but I felt the game was complete without any of the guest sculptures. I'm getting this add-on, but I'm in no way committed to getting all of them. I guess I'll have my answer in about 3 weeks.

Lastly, if you're frustrated that you can't see the whole scope of the project yet, think of how it feels to be the creator. You have this giant project you want to get off the ground, but you still don't know how much of it you can afford. I'm pretty sure Serious Poulp would like to know the final scope of the project too!
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DaviddesJ wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.


Shouldn't the full scope of the project be revealed when the campaign kicks off?


No, probably not. There are lots of good reasons for revealing the full scope of the project over time, and expanding it as demand supports a larger scope. It wouldn't make any sense to announce scads of add-ons if the core game is not even funded. The progressive unveiling of a larger and larger project is also deeply motivating and exciting to most people. The fact that you personally don't like it is still only one small point.


And in all other campaigns I've done, any game mechanic add ons are up front, a "bigger" game is revealed through stretch goals in those.

I enjoy seeing stretch goals unveiled/reached, but I'm never going to hope to spend more money. I just meant stretch goals won't factor in my decision to back or not.
 
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This may not be the case for all of the add ons, but this one is not KS exclusive.

So, it may be practical to get it now from a shipping/discount standpoint (plus if you don't want to wait!), but you can wait and get it later if that is not an issue for you.

My issue with many campaigns is that there are so many exclusive add-ons or grossly discounted items (half off or more of retail price) that you end up spending $300+ for a game you aren't even sure you'll fully enjoy.

People have many reasons for wanting to get everything for a game. I am in that category mostly as well, but after getting tons for games I ended up only feeling average about, I'm more cautious.

At the same time, if I back a game, I plan to love the game. I have enough games so I don't need anything I won't love. And, if I love it, I'll want to expand it as much as I can because I will play it often. (heck, am going to Arkham Nights this weekend, to play games...but even more so get that Elder Sign promo).

I don't complete all my games that way, only those I love because any variety I can add is great. (but it's tough because I only backed because I thought I'd love it!)

For me, it's about risk. Risk of missing out on content from a great game vs risk of paying for content on a game you don't end up liking. I just try to minimize my risk.

Outside KS, that means I do not buy an expansion before I've played the base game enough to determine I love the game. Then, I buy expansions if I love it (or maybe just 1 or 2 expansions if I only like it a lot).

I only tweak that for KS, allowing a small amount of expansions to be bought before trying, but I basically have a dollar amount that I won't go over for a pledge. The amount isn't set in stone, but is based on my confidence in how much I'll like it, confidence in the company, and just how much over my typical amount it goes.

I may miss some great games that way, but I have enough games that I can't risk buying a bunch of expansions for games I may not like.

But, so far, I am not alarmed by anything in this campaign.

Plus, I think it has a unique gameplay style/feel that may make it worth adding to my collection.

---------------------------
Bottom Line:
1) I now avoid KS campaigns with too high of a buy-in to get exclusive content or heavily discounted "all in" add-on.

2) If neither true, you can always get those add-ons later and won't be paying too much more. (you do risk chance of add-on being released quite late or not at all depending on the success of the games)

3) There is only one small cost add-on right now, and it's not KS exclusive. And, the add-on price while discounted is not so grossly discounted as to twist your arm into buying now. I'd say wait and see before becoming upset over a small add-on.
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
coldkorn wrote:
I mean committed more in the sense of "oh, I'm definitely getting that." I already decided I was getting the game, so I am "committed" to it.


Why did you decide before seeing the full scope of the project? I'm now sort of curious about that.


Shouldn't the full scope of the project be revealed when the campaign kicks off? Stretch goals typically aren't a factor for me when deciding to back. I read the concept, watched a preview video and Rahdo's video before the campaign. Innovative, original coop game sounded up the alley for games my wife and I like. The price for the base with 3 xps plus mystery shipping is steeper than we'd normally pay, but thought it would be great for us.


Not necessarily. Many of the options planned for by creators are only available at a certain level of success. I've seen campaigns doomed by posting SGs way too far in advance that show people how much they won't get. You read the same comments there that you see in this thread, only BGGers lamenting that it's not worth backing because it will never reach x goal.

I'm in the camp to back the game if you like it. The game will change as the campaign progresses. If you want to add bells and whistles, do so. If not, I honestly don't see how not getting a few cards out of more than 1,000 would prevent you from getting it.


Because many people make decisions that aren't 100% rational. I'm glad to hear there is only one add-on revealed at this point, and I hope that number stays low. But, campaigns overflowing with add-ons generally turn me off.

Why? The main factor, at least for me, is I don't like to "shop" on KS. Pseudo-investing in a project and seeing it come to life is fun, but when it starts feeling more like an inevitable product that I am spending more and more money on to buy in advance, I'd rather just hold off and see what happens when it's eventually released. At that point, I will have the benefit of tons of reviews, information about the physical components/production, and likely even a chance to try before I buy. This is all especially important when the design team is unproven.

For me, add-ons are the part of a KS campaign most likely to make it seem less like a project in need of realization and more like a product available for long-term pre-order.

And then, there's the part of me that's just irrational. The part that wants to have everything or nothing. Usually, I can quell that silly beast, but it's too difficult when I'm already absorbing all of the other risks associated with a Kickstarter project.

MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'm getting this add-on, but I'm in no way committed to getting all of them. I guess I'll have my answer in about 3 weeks.


As is so often the case, the best course of action seems to be to wait until the campaign is nearly over and make a decision at that point.
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xuzuthor wrote:
This may not be the case for all of the add ons, but this one is not KS exclusive.

So, it may be practical to get it now from a shipping/discount standpoint (plus if you don't want to wait!), but you can wait and get it later if that is not an issue for you.

My issue with many campaigns is that there are so many exclusive add-ons or grossly discounted items (half off or more of retail price) that you end up spending $300+ for a game you aren't even sure you'll fully enjoy.

People have many reasons for wanting to get everything for a game. I am in that category mostly as well, but after getting tons for games I ended up only feeling average about, I'm more cautious.

At the same time, if I back a game, I plan to love the game. I have enough games so I don't need anything I won't love. And, if I love it, I'll want to expand it as much as I can because I will play it often. (heck, am going to Arkham Nights this weekend, to play games...but even more so get that Elder Sign promo).

I don't complete all my games that way, only those I love because any variety I can add is great. (but it's tough because I only backed because I thought I'd love it!)

For me, it's about risk. Risk of missing out on content from a great game vs risk of paying for content on a game you don't end up liking. I just try to minimize my risk.

Outside KS, that means I do not buy an expansion before I've played the base game enough to determine I love the game. Then, I buy expansions if I love it (or maybe just 1 or 2 expansions if I only like it a lot).

I only tweak that for KS, allowing a small amount of expansions to be bought before trying, but I basically have a dollar amount that I won't go over for a pledge. The amount isn't set in stone, but is based on my confidence in how much I'll like it, confidence in the company, and just how much over my typical amount it goes.

I may miss some great games that way, but I have enough games that I can't risk buying a bunch of expansions for games I may not like.

But, so far, I am not alarmed by anything in this campaign.

Plus, I think it has a unique gameplay style/feel that may make it worth adding to my collection.

---------------------------
Bottom Line:
1) I now avoid KS campaigns with too high of a buy-in to get exclusive content or heavily discounted "all in" add-on.

2) If neither true, you can always get those add-ons later and won't be paying too much more. (you do risk chance of add-on being released quite late or not at all depending on the success of the games)

3) There is only one small cost add-on right now, and it's not KS exclusive. And, the add-on price while discounted is not so grossly discounted as to twist your arm into buying now. I'd say wait and see before becoming upset over a small add-on.


I want an Elder Sign promo card! lol

I'm in the same boat as you, I only get expansions if I know or am reasonably confident I like the game.

I'm not concerned on the campaign as a whole and I'm not in the "going to withdraw my whole pledge because they put an add-on" group. It just warrants discussion. To me, this feels like it would have been an included, more meaningful stretch goal in other campaigns that would make less money than this one has already.

Overall, it's not a big deal to me. I'm not interested in what this add-on brings. I just hope there are no KS exclusive add-ons as that will be frustrating.
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Some of the comments above confuse me. Ok, let's say I look over the KS material, and decide that the game looks fantastic, and decide to buy in. Then the next day, the designers put up an add-on that offers some sort of alternate gameplay, new functionality, or whatever. How does that add-on affect in *any way* the fact that I thought that what I saw the day before looked fantastic?

Stretch goals are great; they add new content "for free". In effect, I'm getting *more* for my money than what I originally agreed to buy. Worst case scenario, if I don't like the new content, I can set it aside and not use it. With add-ons, I can either stick with the game that I agreed to pay for, or I can buy the new feature that didn't factor into my decision to buy the game in the first place. But why should that add-on make the core content less fantastic?

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