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Subject: Yeah, if you could come in on Saturday, that would be great. Yeah. rss

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Annnnnd Yeah, we aren't going to pay you. Yeah.
If this winds up being true, let the boycott begin right?
I don't know if I know anyone that loves their company enough to work for free.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/style/Urban-Outfitters-pa...
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Ron Preisach
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Are you for or against this?
 
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edgerunner76 wrote:
Are you for or against this?


For or against what?
 
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Junior McSpiffy
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If they start threatening to fire people if they don't work for free*, then that's a huge issue. If they are just asking for volunteers, then that's nothing more than naive.











* The way WalMart does when they somehow find themselves short-staffed... again... always... and needs someone to stay for another hour or two off the clock, and if you don't, there is a stack of applications for people who we can replace you with, but not people we can hire right now to help with the short-staffing, because business model.
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Matthew Schoell
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TheDashi wrote:
Annnnnd Yeah, we aren't going to pay you. Yeah.
If this winds up being true, let the boycott begin right?
I don't know if I know anyone that loves their company enough to work for free.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/style/Urban-Outfitters-pa...


Just fedex in a copy of your job description.

I love that it went out to salaried employees. Here's a market we can intimidate into working more for no extra compensation!
 
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Ron Preisach
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Nevermind, it's obvious you did your usual. It's for salaried employees. I've done similar things we're I work. I get paid the same no matter how long I'm there or whether I come in on a weekend, etc.
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Matthew Schoell
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GameCrossing wrote:
If they start threatening to fire people if they don't work for free*, then that's a huge issue. If they are just asking for volunteers, then that's nothing more than naive.



Upon further reflection, if I saw this, I'd get my resume in order real quick and start finding new employment. The sort of labor they are asking for is not highly skilled - if they can't pay for some part time work, I'd assume that is a very big red flag.
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edgerunner76 wrote:
Nevermind, it's obvious you did your usual. It's for salaried employees. I've done similar things we're I work. I get paid the same no matter how long I'm there or whether I come in on a weekend, etc.


What I usually do?
You asked a vague question. I wanted a more specific question. And you started crying........

It might be more complicated than that.

Take me for example.

I am considered an EXEMPT Employee. I need to work 80 hours in 2 weeks. I get paid for the hours I work, not 80 hours regardless. So If I HAVE TO WORK longer than 80 hours, I have to report it on my time card. I do not get PAID for this time, but I have to report it so that the company can get reimbursed.

SO I am a salaried employee that gets paid by the hour. How does that make sense?
It doesn't.
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It's not that big of a deal, as a salaried employee I work on weekends and after hours regularly, all "for free". It's part of the scam of white collar workers. Once salary moved from management to other "skilled" positions it was all down hill from there.
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edgerunner76 wrote:
Nevermind, it's obvious you did your usual. It's for salaried employees. I've done similar things we're I work. I get paid the same no matter how long I'm there or whether I come in on a weekend, etc.

This is still an abuse of FLSA exemptions. By asking for "volunteers" they've opened the door for all kinds of potential employer shenanigans.

Notice that these are 6 hour shifts: Do I get breaks? If I take a break during my "volunteering" will I be disciplined? Do I get to leave for lunch or a meal? What if I'm hurt while "volunteering?" What if I don't volunteer at all? Will I be passed over for a promotion? Not get that annual bonus or raise?

When you work extra hours under your salaried employment contract, you are still technically "at work" and some protections from the FLSA still apply. Once you start "volunteering" your time, all bets are off.
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TheChin! wrote:
It's not that big of a deal, as a salaried employee I work on weekends and after hours regularly, all "for free". It's part of the scam of white collar workers. Once salary moved from management to other "skilled" positions it was all down hill from there.

Except that salaried positions, actually exempt employees, are determined by the job duties and not your title or "skilled" position designation. Once you start asking "professional" employees to do jobs that non-exempt employees are supposed to do, your employer has entered in to a gray area that is no longer covered by your salaried employee contract. However, asking exempt employees to "volunteer" to perform those non-exempt duties is perfectly legal - until you start penalizing them for not "volunteering."
 
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TheDashi wrote:
Take me for example.

I am considered an EXEMPT Employee. I need to work 80 hours in 2 weeks. I get paid for the hours I work, not 80 hours regardless. So If I HAVE TO WORK longer than 80 hours, I have to report it on my time card. I do not get PAID for this time, but I have to report it so that the company can get reimbursed.

SO I am a salaried employee that gets paid by the hour. How does that make sense?
It doesn't.

No, it doesn't. I'm no expert but it sounds like they're trying to dodge the FLSA there. I'm pretty sure that being exempt requires that you have a guaranteed minimum salary that can only be reduced in whole day increments for things like sick/vacation/discipline. If your 80 hour pay rate would be reduced to 77 hours if you, say, had to leave early one day and pick up your kid at school that wouldn't be allowed. Your pay can be expressed as an hourly rate for convenience and bookkeeping purposes, but your actual hours worked cannot affect your base pay.

Obviously the company has multiple avenues of discipline available if you are regularly not working your full assigned shifts, but docking pay is not one of them.

 
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damiangerous wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
Take me for example.

I am considered an EXEMPT Employee. I need to work 80 hours in 2 weeks. I get paid for the hours I work, not 80 hours regardless. So If I HAVE TO WORK longer than 80 hours, I have to report it on my time card. I do not get PAID for this time, but I have to report it so that the company can get reimbursed.

SO I am a salaried employee that gets paid by the hour. How does that make sense?
It doesn't.

No, it doesn't. I'm no expert but it sounds like they're trying to dodge the FLSA there. I'm pretty sure that being exempt requires that you have a guaranteed minimum salary that can only be reduced in whole day increments for things like sick/vacation/discipline. If your 80 hour pay rate would be reduced to 77 hours if you, say, had to leave early one day and pick up your kid at school that wouldn't be allowed. Your pay can be expressed as an hourly rate for convenience and bookkeeping purposes, but your actual hours worked cannot affect your base pay.

Obviously the company has multiple avenues of discipline available if you are regularly not working your full assigned shifts, but docking pay is not one of them.



Oh they dock pay.
But they do that after using your vacation time.

If I report 75 hours, they will deduct five hours from DTO. Discretionary time off.
If that is all gone.
They will pay you for 75 hours.
Then your manager will probably come after you and want to kill you.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
Annnnnd Yeah, we aren't going to pay you. Yeah.
If this winds up being true, let the boycott begin right?
I don't know if I know anyone that loves their company enough to work for free.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/style/Urban-Outfitters-pa...


http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/urbn/financials

Seriously?

lol. I hope they burn in legal hell.
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My head is spinning thinking of the many ways this could be abused. How many of those who don't volunteer will receive substandard evaluations? How many will miss out on a promotion or raise? How many will be relocated or transferred to less-desirable duties? How many will be let go in the next round of lay-offs?

This is only voluntary on the surface. Anyone with any gumption should start looking for another job ASAP, before the company decides that this business model was so successful that it should be used any time there's a problem.


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I remember once upon a time I was a Libertarian.

Man, I was naive.
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TheDashi wrote:
damiangerous wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
Take me for example.

I am considered an EXEMPT Employee. I need to work 80 hours in 2 weeks. I get paid for the hours I work, not 80 hours regardless. So If I HAVE TO WORK longer than 80 hours, I have to report it on my time card. I do not get PAID for this time, but I have to report it so that the company can get reimbursed.

SO I am a salaried employee that gets paid by the hour. How does that make sense?
It doesn't.

No, it doesn't. I'm no expert but it sounds like they're trying to dodge the FLSA there. I'm pretty sure that being exempt requires that you have a guaranteed minimum salary that can only be reduced in whole day increments for things like sick/vacation/discipline. If your 80 hour pay rate would be reduced to 77 hours if you, say, had to leave early one day and pick up your kid at school that wouldn't be allowed. Your pay can be expressed as an hourly rate for convenience and bookkeeping purposes, but your actual hours worked cannot affect your base pay.

Obviously the company has multiple avenues of discipline available if you are regularly not working your full assigned shifts, but docking pay is not one of them.



Oh they dock pay.
But they do that after using your vacation time.

If I report 75 hours, they will deduct five hours from DTO. Discretionary time off.
If that is all gone.
They will pay you for 75 hours.
Then your manager will probably come after you and want to kill you.

Dashi, are you by any chance an employee of a federal government contractor? I am and my employer does the same thing.

If I work 88 hours in a pay period (11 work days, 8 hour shifts), I am paid based on my annual salary divided by 24 (semi-monthly pay periods). If I miss a couple of hours, I have to make it up via PTO (Personal Time Off). If I have no PTO, I am on Leave Without Pay (LWOP).

The kicker is my company's policy dictates that LWOP can only be taken in 8 hour increments (theoretically, if I miss 2 hours in a pay period I am docked 8 - though my boss has said if that ever happens he will comp my worked hours in a later pay period).

I am not paid my salary for LWOP.

I'm pretty sure this is illegal, but haven't had a reason yet to talk to a Labor Attorney about it. As soon as I do have that reason you better believe I'm all about getting legal advice and filing a complaint. Though, I fully expect that I'll be fired if I do.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
It's not that big of a deal, as a salaried employee I work on weekends and after hours regularly, all "for free". It's part of the scam of white collar workers. Once salary moved from management to other "skilled" positions it was all down hill from there.


Well, except for the stability of a salary.
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I have no idea if the Urban Outfitters deal is legit. A lot of companies use the label "salaried" to get free overtime. If they are truly salaried--managers, Marketing, buyers...--then having them see the physical shipping part of the company is a good thing. If it's truly voluntary, even better.

I think a big key is whether you consider yourself in partnership with the company or whether you're each trying to screw as much out of the other as possible. Thankfully, I've never worked in the latter environment.
 
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Presumably, they could legally announce they are cutting everyone's pay by 10% and then offer them the opportunity to earn their previous pay by working on Saturday as well. This hardly seems worse than that.

If you wouldn't put up with a mandatory pay cut but would quit and go look for a different job, then you should do the same thing if your employer doesn't pay you any more and asks you to work more hours.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
I think a big key is whether you consider yourself in partnership with the company or whether you're each trying to screw as much out of the other as possible. Thankfully, I've never worked in the latter environment.

I find this reasoning perverse. In very few jobs would you truly be part of a partnership. You might hold a minor stake in ownership due to stock options, but you're not a partner in the sense that you directly share in profit and loss. You're an employee who provides a certain amount of value to the company and is compensated for that value. If ownership wants you to take on additional work or responsibilities, they should pay for it. That's business.


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SPIGuy wrote:
In very few jobs would you truly be part of a partnership. You might hold a minor stake in ownership due to stock options, but you're not a partner in the sense that you directly share in profit and loss. You're an employee who provides a certain amount of value to the company and is compensated for that value.


That's not the relationship I've ever had with my employer. But I haven't had that many jobs.

Most people I know are doing their job primarily because they think it's valuable and they are excited to have the opportunity to have an impact. Of course, I'm not claiming that's a random sample of working Americans.
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GameCrossing wrote:
If they start threatening to fire people if they don't work for free*, then that's a huge issue. If they are just asking for volunteers, then that's nothing more than naive.











* The way WalMart does when they somehow find themselves short-staffed... again... always... and needs someone to stay for another hour or two off the clock, and if you don't, there is a stack of applications for people who we can replace you with, but not people we can hire right now to help with the short-staffing, because business model.


This ties to the real answer:

Salaried floor associates at Wal*Mart!

Don't need to pay 'em overtime then. You might get a net loss from the bennies tho.
 
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SPIGuy wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
I think a big key is whether you consider yourself in partnership with the company or whether you're each trying to screw as much out of the other as possible. Thankfully, I've never worked in the latter environment.

I find this reasoning perverse. In very few jobs would you truly be part of a partnership. You might hold a minor stake in ownership due to stock options, but you're not a partner in the sense that you directly share in profit and loss. You're an employee who provides a certain amount of value to the company and is compensated for that value. If ownership wants you to take on additional work or responsibilities, they should pay for it. That's business.

I didn't mean partnership in the legal business sense.

Being salaried means, and it's partially the legal definition, that the company trusts me to make my own decisions about how much to work and when. That's doesn't mean I can be a jerk about it, but I can go run an errand in the middle of the work day with no more than a word to my boss that I'm going to be gone. Yes, I've spent a lot of "my" time on airliners (a lot in business class, which is pretty sweet) and in airports, but also, after a long trip I've taken a day off--not a vacation day. I've also scheduled business trips on Saturday, trading lower air fare against higher hotel and food costs, getting a nice Sunday holiday.

It's about mutual respect instead of confrontation. Confrontation is foolish: they've got a much bigger stick than you do, including firing your ass.
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