Steve
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Because of the spotting rule and “observation” rule [such as it is], battles are not fought over hills or high ground. Instead they are fought over little Woods and Towns.

In original PB deploying on a slope or hilltop that is not a Woods is an invitation to being destroyed before your unit gets to fire 1 shot. I have read about many battles fought over a hill, but never once read about fighting over a little woods. Why is PB the opposite?

It is because being on a hill gives you little advantage [just double DF] and being in a ground level Woods gives you no disadvantage. In reality being on a hill [here 2 slopes back to back or a hilltop] lets you see and therefore fire far further, while being on ground level means that you can't really see very far.

I was born and raised in Kansas. I have some experience with so called flat land. Believe me, if someone doesn't want to be seen even Kansas ground is such that you can only see about a mile. So for simplicity we'll just let you see 6 hexes.

Therefore these rules –
1] Units on ground level can see and fire just 6 hexes. Remember other things can also block your view.
. . a] Units on ground level can see and fire 6x3= 18 hexes to the edge of hilltops. Note that the higher unit can see further than the lower unit.
. . b] Units on ground level can see and fire 6x2= 12 hexes to slope hexes. Note that the higher unit can see further than the lower unit.
2] Units on a slope can have a line of sight that is 6x3 = 18 hexes long. They can't fire at hexes that are further than this away or call for indirect fire on them either. They can see the edges of hilltops to 18 hexes. Note that the higher unit can see further than the lower unit.
. . a] Units can not fire over a brown hexside of the unit's hex, except for M-class & (H)-class using indirect fire and/or when firing at an adjacent hex.
. . b] Units can however see over the adjacent brown hexsides because they can send men to look over them.
. . c] I can't decide if 6x3 or 6x2 is better here. 6x3 lets an 88 fire 18 hexes from here, 6x2 would limit it to just 12.
3] Units on the edge of Hilltops looking down at ground level “clear” hexes can have a line of sight that is 6 x 4 = 24 hexes long. They can fire at unit out to 24 hexes and call for indirect fire too.
.
.
An Experimental rule – Slopes are so covered in bushes and boulders, and are so rough and “rolling” that no unit in a slope hex can be spotted from ground level from more than 3 hexes away. However this distance is multiplied by the same multiple as hills increase observation range; x4 from a hilltop hex and x3 from another slope hex. This means that you need a spotter that close* [3 or 9 or 12 hexes] to be able to fire at units on slopes.

. * . Such spotters also need a clear line of sight, not blocked by brown hexsides for instance.

Another Experimental rule - Units on slopes and Hilltops can not usually see to fire down into gully hexes. They can see into Ford hexes, into any gully from a hilltop that is 2 hexes away, and if the line of sight goes thru a gully hex to an adjacent gully hex with the unit in it.10/13/15
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Seth Owen
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Steve1501 wrote:
Because of the spotting rule and “observation” rule [such as it is], battles are not fought over hills or high ground. Instead they are fought over little Woods and Towns.

In original PB deploying on a slope or hilltop that is not a Woods is an invitation to being destroyed before your unit gets to fire 1 shot. I have read about many battles fought over a hill, but never once read about fighting over a little woods. Why is PB the opposite?

It is because being on a hill gives you little advantage [just double DF] and being in a ground level Woods gives you no disadvantage. In reality being on a hill [here 2 slopes back to back or a hilltop] lets you see and therefore fire far further, while being on ground level means that you can't really see very far.

I was born and raised in Kansas. I have some experience with so called flat land. Believe me, if someone doesn't want to be seen even Kansas ground is such that you can only see about a mile. So for simplicity we'll just let you see 6 hexes.

Therefore these rules –
1] Units on ground level can see and fire just 6 hexes. Remember other things can also block your view.
. . a] Units on ground level can see and fire 6x4= 24 hexes to the edge of hilltops.
. . b] Units on ground level can see and fire 6x3= 18 hexes to slope hexes.
2] Units on a slope can have a line of sight that is 6 x 3 = 18 hexes long. They can't fire at hexes that are further than this away or call for indirect fire on them either. The can see the edges of hilltops to 24 hexes.
. . a] Units can not fire over a brown hexside of the unit's hex, except for M-class & (H)-class using indirect fire and/or when firing at an adjacent hex.
. . b] Units can however see over the adjacent brown hexsides because they can send men to look over them.
. . c] I can't decide if 6x3 or 6x2 is better here. 6x3 lets an 88 fire 18 hexes from here, 6x2 would limit it to just 12.
3] Units on the edge of Hilltops looking down at ground level “clear” hexes can have a line of sight that is 6 x 4 = 24 hexes long. They can fire at unit out to 24 hexes and call for indirect fire too.


Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game!

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wargamer55 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
Because of the spotting rule and “observation” rule [such as it is], battles are not fought over hills or high ground. Instead they are fought over little Woods and Towns.

In original PB deploying on a slope or hilltop that is not a Woods is an invitation to being destroyed before your unit gets to fire 1 shot. I have read about many battles fought over a hill, but never once read about fighting over a little woods. Why is PB the opposite?

It is because being on a hill gives you little advantage [just double DF] and being in a ground level Woods gives you no disadvantage. In reality being on a hill [here 2 slopes back to back or a hilltop] lets you see and therefore fire far further, while being on ground level means that you can't really see very far.

I was born and raised in Kansas. I have some experience with so called flat land. Believe me, if someone doesn't want to be seen even Kansas ground is such that you can only see about a mile. So for simplicity we'll just let you see 6 hexes.

Therefore these rules –
1] Units on ground level can see and fire just 6 hexes. Remember other things can also block your view.
. . a] Units on ground level can see and fire 6x4= 24 hexes to the edge of hilltops.
. . b] Units on ground level can see and fire 6x3= 18 hexes to slope hexes.
2] Units on a slope can have a line of sight that is 6 x 3 = 18 hexes long. They can't fire at hexes that are further than this away or call for indirect fire on them either. The can see the edges of hilltops to 24 hexes.
. . a] Units can not fire over a brown hexside of the unit's hex, except for M-class & (H)-class using indirect fire and/or when firing at an adjacent hex.
. . b] Units can however see over the adjacent brown hexsides because they can send men to look over them.
. . c] I can't decide if 6x3 or 6x2 is better here. 6x3 lets an 88 fire 18 hexes from here, 6x2 would limit it to just 12.
3] Units on the edge of Hilltops looking down at ground level “clear” hexes can have a line of sight that is 6 x 4 = 24 hexes long. They can fire at unit out to 24 hexes and call for indirect fire too.


Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game!




LOL. Just go read this thread and be done with it.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1167422/fixing-panzerblitz
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Steve
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wargamer55 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
Because of the spotting rule and “observation” rule [such as it is], battles are not fought over hills or high ground. Instead they are fought over little Woods and Towns.

In original PB deploying on a slope or hilltop that is not a Woods is an invitation to being destroyed before your unit gets to fire 1 shot. I have read about many battles fought over a hill, but never once read about fighting over a little woods. Why is PB the opposite?
.... snip


Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game!

I have answered this question several times in several places.
1] I always wanted to improve my games that needed improving. Right now AH's Gettysburg '58/'64 is on my table from my improving it.
2] Now I'm retired and have the time to kill. But, no money.
3] I moved to Thailand with my Thai wife to stretch the Soc. Sec. checks. The recession wiped out our life savings. I can't speak or learn Thai, so I have few people I can socialize with.
4] I like the challange, it's like a puzzle to me.

Why do you have a vendetta against me?* You could just ignore me. But no, you have to break into my "Variant" thread and attack me, twice. Please see my thread in BGG, Wargames, General, "Please, do not post in a Variant's thread how it is wrong or unnecessary to make variants." There I suggest that you write your own thread and talk with your like minded people about how writing variants for PB is stupid and unnecessary. Breaking into my thread to say that twice is kind of Troll-like, isn't it?

* . I thought of you as an internet friend. I'm sorry that you have soured our friendship.

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Steve
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lgoldberg wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game!



LOL. Just go read this thread and be done with it.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1167422/fixing-panzerblitz

I already did read it, it inspired me. It was left unresolved.

JasonC never finished it or posted a file with the result of his endeavors.

When I'm done I'll post a file of whatever I end with.

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Scott Clinton
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Steve1501Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game![/q]
I have answered this question several times in several places.
1] I always wanted to improve my games that needed improving. Right now AH's Gettysburg '58/'64 is on my table from my improving it.
2] Now I'm retired and have the time to kill. But, no money.
3] I moved to Thailand with my Thai wife to stretch the Soc. Sec. checks. The recession wiped out our life savings. I can't speak or learn Thai, so I have few people I can socialize with.
4 wrote:
I like the challange, it's like a puzzle to me.



Lighten up guys.

I can sympathize with you both on many levels. And...I hate Vassal (too I think).

As for "Gettysburg", hell, you must have time to kill. Avalon Hll "fixed" that back in 1988 (Gettysburg (125th Anniversary edition)) and I finally got my copy last year for under $20.00 delivered. lol...

Seriously, I am just giving you a "hard time now"! ...and...I have yet to actually play any version of Gettysburg. But, I have my hopes!

Debates 'can' be fun. Hell, who can take a 45 year old musty boardgame seriously that nobody under the age of 40 wants to even talk about? Not me and I love them!

Scott

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Steve
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:


Lighten up guys.

I can sympathize with you both on many levels. And...I hate Vassal (too I think).

Why do you "hate" Vassal?
Seriously.
I have not used it to play anyone long distance yet, so I'd like to know what is wrong with it?

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Robert Wesley
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wargamer55 wrote:


Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game!

Steve1501 wrote:

I have answered this question several times in several places.
1] I always wanted to improve my games that needed improving. Right now AH's Gettysburg '58/'64 is on my table from my improving it.
2] Now I'm retired and have the time to kill. But, no money.
3] I moved to Thailand with my Thai wife to stretch the Soc. Sec. checks. The recession wiped out our life savings. I can't speak or learn Thai, so I have few people I can socialize with.
4] I like the challange, it's like a puzzle to me.

Why do you have a vendetta against me?* You could just ignore me. But no, you have to break into my "Variant" thread and attack me, twice. Please see my thread in BGG, Wargames, General, "Please, do not post in a Variant's thread how it is wrong or unnecessary to make variants." There I suggest that you write your own thread and talk with your like minded people about how writing variants for PB is stupid and unnecessary. Breaking into my thread to say that twice is kind of Troll-like, isn't it?

* . I thought of you as an internet friend. I'm sorry that you have soured our friendship.

I'm laughing with/about Seth's response here, and we find it daunting that we're explaining much and yet not much is being understood, with it overall. I hope that 'moi' can speak on behalf of any others, as it is interesting discussion and no animosity nor enmity were meant upon yourself, personally.
cool
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Steve
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GROGnads wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:


Why do you have this vendetta against PanzerBlitz? It's a 45-year-old game!

Steve1501 wrote:

I have answered this question several times in several places.
1] I always wanted to improve my games that needed improving. Right now AH's Gettysburg '58/'64 is on my table from my improving it.
2] Now I'm retired and have the time to kill. But, no money.
3] I moved to Thailand with my Thai wife to stretch the Soc. Sec. checks. The recession wiped out our life savings. I can't speak or learn Thai, so I have few people I can socialize with.
4] I like the challange, it's like a puzzle to me.

Why do you have a vendetta against me?* You could just ignore me. But no, you have to break into my "Variant" thread and attack me, twice. Please see my thread in BGG, Wargames, General, "Please, do not post in a Variant's thread how it is wrong or unnecessary to make variants." There I suggest that you write your own thread and talk with your like minded people about how writing variants for PB is stupid and unnecessary. Breaking into my thread to say that twice is kind of Troll-like, isn't it?

* . I thought of you as an internet friend. I'm sorry that you have soured our friendship.

I'm laughing with/about Seth's response here, and we find it daunting that we're explaining much and yet not much is being understood, with it overall. I hope that 'moi' can speak on behalf of any others, as it is interesting discussion and no animosity nor enmity were meant upon yourself, personally.
cool

GROGnads, your and Seth's replies are quite different. Seth said as much as any variant for PB is "beating a dead horse" after 45 years have passed; and I should go and buy a newer game.
. . You have at least argued about specific points as being wrong-headed. Although, I find it extremely hard to understand what you write because of your strange style of writing.

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Robert Wesley
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Steve1501 wrote:
GROGnads wrote:
I'm laughing with/about Seth's response here, and we find it daunting that we're explaining much and yet not much is being understood, with it overall. I hope that 'moi' can speak on behalf of any others, as it is interesting discussion and no animosity nor enmity were meant upon yourself, personally.
cool

GROGnads, your and Seth's replies are quite different. Seth said as much as any variant for PB is "beating a dead horse" after 45 years have passed; and I should go and buy a newer game.
. . You have at least argued about specific points as being wrong-headed. Although, I find it extremely hard to understand what you write because of your strange style of writing.

Oh, those MOST 'pertinent' and therefore 'stressed' parts, to "stand out" best in order to mull upon them further, or some, and any? whistle
 
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Scott Clinton
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Steve1501 wrote:
Grumbling Grognard wrote:


Lighten up guys.

I can sympathize with you both on many levels. And...I hate Vassal (too I think).

Why do you "hate" Vassal?
Seriously.
I have not used it to play anyone long distance yet, so I'd like to know what is wrong with it?



Because VASSAL is what I want in a PC game (with pbem/on-line). For my board games, I want a human, in front of me.

That (IMHO) is 90% of the "Game".

Seriously, I am not a "social" person (most geeks are not by "normal" standards), but I do vastly prefer a human in my both my board games and miniatures games. I think I would have loved in when I was younger, maybe. I can definately see where others do love it (great tool).
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Steve
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Grumbling Grognard,
I don't think Vassal has an AI to play against. It is just a system for PBEM.

Or, are you saying that you only play FtF?

 
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Steve
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To increase the usefulness of defending on slopes I'm suggesting this:

Experimental rule – Slopes are so covered in bushes and boulders, and are so rough and “rolling” that no unit in a slope hex can be spotted from ground level from more than 3 hexes away. However this distance is multiplied by the same multiple as hills increase observation range; x4 from a hilltop hex and x3 from another slope hex. This means that you need a spotter that close* [3 or 9 or 12 hexes] to be able to fire at units on slopes.

. * . Such spotters also need a clear line of sight, not blocked by brown hexsides for instance.
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jay murphy

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You are right Steve. Vassal is for PBEM. Thanks for posting. Some of these other folks may have been beating this dead horse for over forty years, but I'm new to the game and have yet to play it. Keep posting your thoughts. I for one enjoy the company!
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