Anson Bischoff
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As many of you know, there have been several unanswered questions regarding whether certain changes from the first edition to second edition rules were intentional, or just haphazardly omitted. The most important of these, by my estimation, were whether or not the passing token needs to be picked up on the turn after it is placed, and whether or not monsters are able to be healed after they are no longer hiding.

About a week ago, I sent Martin Wallace himself an email regarding the issue.

Here is the official response:

"Still travelling at the moment. I will need to compare the old and new rule book to check, which means waiting until I get back to NZ."

So....... yeah. He has to check the rulebook. So if you are looking for an answer from him that is anything beyond what is written in the rulebook, then I am afraid you might be out of luck.

I'll let you know if he sends me any further responses.

******EDIT*******

He has now written me back again and the OFFICIAL rule is that the rules HAVE CHANGED and should be read as they are written in the 2nd edition rulebook.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
I've still not made up my mind on passing, but I've tried playing the game where revealed monsters can heal, and let's just say that unless some really, really compelling argument is presented against it, I'll be playing that they must be hidden.

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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Please update subject to be less misleading.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
lfisher wrote:
Please update subject to be less misleading.


Maybe just change "OFFICIAL" to "OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL" or something like that.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Gaiman: George R.R. Martin is not your bitch. For this issue substitute "Martin Wallace" for "George R.R. Martin"; I think the rant still applies.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules





OMG, that post is awesome, and even more so because i already very much enjoy Neil Gaiman
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Anson Bischoff
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Yes, yes. I'll change the name of the post. Just a little fun, I'm not trying to tear down the fabric of our holy bgg, which I do love and hold dearly in my heart. I only hope we get a real official response some day.

And as for the Neil Gaiman post, I see your point.

It is a bit more than that though. It's more like he got everyone to buy his book in advance, then pushed back the release date for several years, and when it FINALLY came out and his fans were foaming at the mouth for it, it was missing a couple chapters. When his fans asked him about the issue, he told them he would have to read his book and find out.

It's just, you know..... I waited 3 years for a game that nobody knows the rules to. That's all.

I still love my precious little Martin Wallace.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIAL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
rynelf wrote:
Gaiman: George R.R. Martin is not your bitch. For this issue substitute "Martin Wallace" for "George R.R. Martin"; I think the rant still applies.


eh, feels different.

Quote:
You're complaining about George doing other things than writing the books you want to read as if your buying the first book in the series was a contract with him: that you would pay over your ten dollars, and George for his part would spend every waking hour until the series was done, writing the rest of the books for you.


if I bought one of his early games and thus felt he was obligated to make this game, that would be applicable.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
biscuits409 wrote:

"Still travelling at the moment. I will need to compare the old and new rule book to check, which means waiting until I get back to NZ."

So....... yeah. He has to check the rulebook. So if you are looking for an answer from him that is anything beyond what is written in the rulebook, (for example: for him to know the rules to his own games) then I am afraid you might be out of luck.


I am actually going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this (though thinking about it more he has been at an event selling this, and I assume demoing, or at least discussing it) as rather than give an non thought out, quick answer he has said "let me check my notes".

Considering everything, I think him double checking before confirming is the better choice, though a errata would be most irritating, (especially considering) it would still be better than a bad rule being upheld so as not to have " errors".

Or have I just gone soft?
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
rynelf wrote:
Gaiman: George R.R. Martin is not your bitch. For this issue substitute "Martin Wallace" for "George R.R. Martin"; I think the rant still applies.

That is an excellent article by, in my opinion, one of the worlds best living authors, but unfortunately, also my opinion, doesn't apply here.

Of course MW is allowed to have a life. Of course he is, I doubt there are many that would begrudge him enjoying himself doing whatever he chooses.

I don't think anyone is annoyed that MW isn't designing Game X. They're justifiably annoyed that Game Y, that was over two years late in what was basically a reprint, was finally released with unclear, apparently hastily put together rules.

I understand that MW designs games for a living, and because of that he designs a lot of games and doesn't make that great of a living. I also understand that he was just in Essen at the world's biggest board game fair and is probably tired and busy. These are the reasons I personally haven't tried to get any rules clarifications from him, yet.

But to suggest that someone who may be slightly less understanding and slightly more annoyed than I am is behaving as some of GRRM's fans have in the past is a little unfair. No one is demanding MW lives his life for them. All they're stating is frustration that after all this time he can't answer two very simple yet fundamentally important questions that are missing from the 2nd edition rules of a 5 year old game.

Anyway...
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Thanks for the article (NG is fantastic), but unless grrm has started taking public preoders for future books, taken the money, and then written and released other things instead of what he took peoples money for, and delayed what was paid for by years. Then its apples and orranges.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
I get your frustration, but consider that in the process of play testing you make sometimes hundreds of changes, many of which never stick. It can become impossible to remember which changes stuck and which got put into the rules. If you don't involve yourself in creative endeavors which require multiple revisions, it is easy to not realize how much work is actually forgotten by the creator.

So certainly, be critical of missing rules. But also don't be too harsh for him not remembering specifics.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
I played in an E&T tournament once. (This was before you could buy it as Tigris and Euphrates.) There was only one rules question. From Reiner Knizia. Worded in the form "Chris [Lawson], what did we finally decide about X?"

(Reiner actually won, but was disqualified on spurious grounds by Chris.)

I've done quite a few answers to rules questions, including of one where the designer says I know the rules better than he does. And it's always worth first checking the rulebook.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Yeah, I suppose you're right. Better a correct answer than a rushed one.

I really hope we do get an answer someday.

This game has been such a long time coming.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Martin Wallace has confirmed that the rules have changed and should be read as they are in the 2nd edition rules. I have updated my original entry to reflect this.
 
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Quite unfair criticism of MW in this instance. Should probably change the thread title again.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
abodi wrote:
Quite unfair criticism of MW in this instance. Should probably change the thread title again.


possibly. when things change it is nice to know why? We don't get to play a game enough to know that it is balanced. I like to assume that the rules are built in such a way that makes the game most enjoyable and balanced.

When rules are changed, it is nice to have an idea of why so that you know the rules were changed for a reason and not just on a whim.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
abodi wrote:
Quite unfair criticism of MW in this instance. Should probably change the thread title again.


It's more than fair. He treated this KS like a joke and everyone who's tried these new rules say they ruin the game.
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Re: Martin Wallace's OFFICIALLY UNHELPFUL response regarding changes in 2nd edition rules
Magic Pink wrote:
abodi wrote:
Quite unfair criticism of MW in this instance. Should probably change the thread title again.


It's more than fair. He treated this KS like a joke and everyone who's tried these new rules say they ruin the game.


Burn your game in protest!
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biscuits409 wrote:
Martin Wallace has confirmed that the rules have changed and should be read as they are in the 2nd edition rules. I have updated my original entry to reflect this.


Well that's a shame that he didn't do anything helpful like explain why. Ahh well, benefit of the doubt revoked. Hopefully, if as people are saying, its something that the fan base can fix.
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Magic Pink wrote:
abodi wrote:
Quite unfair criticism of MW in this instance. Should probably change the thread title again.


It's more than fair. He treated this KS like a joke and everyone who's tried these new rules say they ruin the game.

.
I own both editions and I disagree. I think the healing rule changes are minor and if you are playing correctly you don't attack the big monsters till you save up a ton of dice. I never attack for,the first several rounds.

As a side note not many of the people who have commented here list that they own the first edition, and since I don't see a bunch of users who own both making the statement that this rule change is bad, I think your statement is not only hyperbole but uses faulty logic and tries to disguise the fact you have a bone to pick with the designer. I think you have a problem with the designer and that is fine, but it's clouding your judgement.

I suspect most of the people who own both editions of this game haven't even commented in these threads. My assumption is based just on basic math and nothing more. Count the number of people who have posted in these recent threads and we are no where near 850, unless every owner of the first edition game personally contacted you and passed this info on for you to share with us. i am willing to go farther and say less than 10 percent of the first edition owners have complained about this rule chain.

I have played the new rules twice with experienced players and they didn't see a big difference at all, in fact healing is now a choice where it rarely was in the past.
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Krazag wrote:
biscuits409 wrote:
Martin Wallace has confirmed that the rules have changed and should be read as they are in the 2nd edition rules. I have updated my original entry to reflect this.


Well that's a shame that he didn't do anything helpful like explain why. Ahh well, benefit of the doubt revoked. Hopefully, if as people are saying, its something that the fan base can fix.

No credit then for answering the email while traveling, and then writing again to confirm the hurried answer once he found time? A paragraph or two of explanatory text to accompany the answer is now required to avoid the wrath of gamers on BGG?

I remember the days of carefully crafting questions so they could be answered with either 'yes' or 'no', and having to send a stamped self-addressed envelope to get even that. We didn't feel as self entitled in those days as people have become now, and were delighted when the answers trickled back a month or two later.
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Dear sphere, please see my earlier post giving him credit for saying "let me check my notes".

Yes. Maybe we do feel entitled over this project. Maybe the fact it has been a farce has something to do with that? Maybe I have just become spoiled by seeing full/fuller answers from other designers in other threads?

Considering everything that has happened with this project, it would be nice to actually know that it was a deliberate change and the reasons for it. As I seem to remember that the ks stated the rules would be updated to clarify questions that had been asked. But this is a change.

Having an answer is great, but considering all the ongoing issues, especially with communication, rather than " the rule book is right", "the rule book is right, play testing caused this", or feedback, or 1st Ed responses, or something would be more reassuring? Again, could just be me?

Now I have not seen the emails, so don't know the exact wording. I also have not played the original, so have no idea if the change is as big, important and game changing as it is being implied it is. But on the other hand, I also have no idea when I (or anyone in the EU ) will actually receive their copy so I can only go on what others say.

I will keep an eye of the page, and go with the player consensus on the rule.

My opinion, jaded backer, etc, etc.
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Krazag wrote:
Dear sphere, please see my earlier post giving him credit for saying "let me check my notes".

Quite magnanimous - so that gives you the right to slag him if he doesn't provide the answer you wanted to hear?

Krazag wrote:
Yes. Maybe we do feel entitled over this project. Maybe the fact it has been a farce has something to do with that? Maybe I have just become spoiled by seeing full/fuller answers from other designers in other threads?
...
My opinion, jaded backer, etc, etc.

There's no maybe about it, and clearly you're not the Lone Ranger. In my case, I am 100% inoculated against Kickstarter angst (bought mine from CSI) and am only interested in the rules.

Even with the toned down thread title, it's clear that this thread is about Mr. Wallace's response more than the actual rules. I'm hoping that some at least of you who feel entitled on the basis of business/contractual K-Word problems will come to realize that carrying that baggage into rules discussions is not helpful; quite the contrary. It attaches a short fuze to any question answered by the designer and inevitably muddies the waters.

Clearly people had the answer they wanted in mind before asking the question, didn't get it, and BOOM. Nasty Mr. Wallace didn't write design notes explaining why he would give such a bloody stupid answer (and didn't add a P.S. begging forgiveness, damn his eyes).

Designers aren't obligated to write designer's notes at all - some great games have never had any - but I agree it's nice when they do so. But you talk about being spoiled by fuller explanations from other designers, and there are two things to consider in that regard (especially for those of you who are in the habit of backing K-word projects).

First is that some K-word designers are working on their first-time commercial projects; they don't have anywhere near the body of work that Mr. Wallace continues to support and has ongoing commitments to design.

Second, many are still working on nascent rule sets when they write those explanatory notes to accompany answers for projects that have not yet been released. By the time Moongha started arriving on doorsteps, Mr. Wallace had probably been immersed in subsequent projects for six months or more. For him, Moongha is a memory, not top of mind, and writing answers to game questions for it is a distraction from what he's working on now.

The irony here is that some of the same angry gamers will pillory him next year for not paying better attention while finishing up the projects this year. The man has my sympathy.

He also has my respect - he's one of the preeminant game designers on the planet. If people had any sense they'd either a) stop pestering him with petty entitlement issues and let him focus on games, or b) stop buying his products. The most apropos answer to the whole situation was linked here:

rynelf wrote:
Gaiman: George R.R. Martin is not your bitch. For this issue substitute "Martin Wallace" for "George R.R. Martin"; I think the rant still applies.

Ponder that, and please try to keep the angst and entitlement distinct from rules questions. I arrived in this thread by accident; didn't realize until I'd slept on it that this was about Mr. Wallace's response, not about the ruling that provided the spark. Once I've gained experience with the rules as written, I may develop an opinion on how these particular rules work, but should that happen I'll discuss it in a rules thread, not here.

Note to admins: I often flag what I see as 'rules threads' as 'wrong folder'. I hope I didn't do that here - if I did, I take it back.
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