Csaba L
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I was looking forward to this LCG. Really.

I read most of the FFG announcements regarding the game but no other early reviews from insiders gamers who received the game for test prior the release. I should have known this after having A:N and SW The Card Game.

But still, now I feel really cry and angry when I realized that If I really wants to take the game seriously and build proper and competitive decks, I need to buy not one but two additional core sets!

FFG wants me to spend extra money on extra boxes I don't want and extra cards I don't need just to get essential cards I really need to have a complete game.

I know for some of you folks this is not an issue.
Most of you probably already knew it when the game is released.
Some of you may gladly buy 3 core sets, just to have a complete game.

But, at the moment, I think this is bad practice and FFG should really change their ways about it.

My solution is that they may release an Upgrade deck (maybe for ALL of their LCGs where it makes sens) which product would complete the game for competitive play.

In case of this game it would mean 19 house cards x 2 copies each x all 8 houses. 304 cards in one box if I'm right here. Correct me If I wrong with the numbers.

I think such additional product would met good public reviews and I would be the first to buy if they ship it tomorrow to my local boardgame shop.

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Drew Thomson
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You're not the first one to think of this, and it has been discussed to death over the years.
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Mychal
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Oh look, this topic again. Color me surprised.
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Duncan Idaho
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Skylar114 wrote:
Oh look, this topic again. Color me surprised.


And with completely new solutions that haven't already been dismissed by FFG's president for perfectly rational and valid reasons! /sarcasm

Sorry for the snark, OP - but your very solutions have been brought up before and specifically shot down. Many, many times. Each time an LCG releases.
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Raf Cordero
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With all the 1x in this game, an upgrade pack would pretty much just be 2 core sets. The extra few copies of neutrals/plots don't change the price all that much.
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Alex Rockwell
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Some of us are really happy to have a complete set of a great deckbuilding card game for less than the cost of a single playset of a chase rare from back in our days playing Magic.
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Csaba L
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This is possibly true but I guess just like me you don't have either a full big insight into the production/economical background of boardgame making.

And If this is the case they should just put 3 copies of each card into the box (except plots), damn it.
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Raf Cordero
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LugoFather wrote:

And If this is the case they should just put 3 copies of each card into the box (except plots), damn it.


True, but this does make it a little less casual friendly. The same thing was discussed with Netrunner, but for at least a year (and probably longer), casual players were the vast majority of Netrunner sales. I'm talking people who aren't "in the hobby" grabbing it from Barnes & Noble or hearing about it and playing with 1 core for a very long time. The current Core Set system makes it way easier on them. Just smash two colors together and go.
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Eric Matthews
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Yeah my sympathy is limited just because you said your looking for it as a serious competitive player. Competitive players are going to min/ max the hell out of the deck construction so buying more than one core is a given... And will be cheaper in the long run than needing multiple copies of all the later releases.

I do think the core set should work better than it does for casual players who just want a balanced 4 player game.

E
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Lytic Phage
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The summary of years of this coming up

1) FFG has clearly settled on ~40$ MSRP being the 'sweet spot' for their introductory products.

2) Profit margins on the core are probably fairly low (lower than CPs/Deluxes, at cost/'unique' card), so fitting in more than ~250 cards a core at that price point is unlikely.

3) Releasing multiple products (e.g. 3 different cores, or a core and a "top-up pack") is costlier, making 2) even worse, makes for a confusing point of entry, and results in more (and confusing) SKUs for stores.

I see no reason to dispute 1, and obviously nothing to contradict 2. You could potentially argue that the current model is 'costing' them enough sales to warrant re-evaluating 3, but I'm not sure that's true.

It then becomes a question of how to divide the max of 250 cards.
-You could include only some factions (unpopular, but not impossible). Still, half as many factions would give you twice as many cards for each, but then you'd be buying 4 cores instead of 3 to get full playsets, and wasting the additional 4th cards.
-Include all 8 factions with full playsets of ~6 cards (extremely unpopular)
etc, etc.

In the end, especially for a game in which the existing playerbase is used to a cardpool of 2000 cards for the 1st edition, maximizing the entry cardpool size (192 unique cards) was probably the right decision. Anything else, which might have been slightly new-player friendlier, would have been pretty painful to existing supporters of the game.

Finally, remember that the number of "wasted" cards in buying 3 cores, if you feel you need to have every option available to you, is basically less than for any other LCG. The only 'wasted' cards if you're someone who likes to keep 2 decks built are the third copies of limit1 plots, 2 set of faction/banner cards and titles, a few neutral economy cards, and the 4-6th copy of the limited in-faction reducer. The cost difference for FFG putting out a "top-up kit" vs you just buying a 2nd and 3rd core would be minor.
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Cory Bullock
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aphynes wrote:
Finally, remember that the number of "wasted" cards in buying 3 cores, if you feel you need to have every option available to you, is basically less than for any other LCG. The only 'wasted' cards if you're someone who likes to keep 2 decks built are the third copies of limit1 plots, 2 set of faction/banner cards and titles, a few neutral economy cards, and the 4-6th copy of the limited in-faction reducer. The cost difference for FFG putting out a "top-up kit" vs you just buying a 2nd and 3rd core would be minor.


This was hugely important to the existing Game of Thrones player base, and so you can blame most of us for the Core Set's distribution. We consistently told FFG that we would rather buy more Core sets than have 9 copies of a bunch of random cards.
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Przemysław Rodzoń
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I think this is the most customer-friendly release of LCG so far.

You've heard of the game, and wanna check it? Buy single core set and play. There are 8 factions, and by mashing up 2 of them, you get 4 decks. You can play joust, and melee. Easy, lots of content and replayability.

You've learned the game a little bit, and you wanna get deeper? Draw Robb Stark more often? Build your own decks? Maybe even mono-faction? Sure, come and buy 2nd core set. You can even ignore deckbuilding rules if you want, because you're playing at home, right?

So you feel like you have great idea for a deck that will crush every other player? But you need 3 copies of Tywin and 3 copies of Varys? 3rd core set is waiting for you at your local retailer.

Now here's some math:
19 cards/faction x 8 factions x 3 copies = 456
18 neutrals x 3 copies = 54
26 plot cards x 2 copies (lets forgive about those, that can be only 1 in plot deck) = 52
8 faction/banner agenda + 1 fealty agenda = 9 cards
6 title cards
That's 577 cards, and that's just for 1 player. With 3 core sets, you're getting 702 cards. Theoreticly that's 125 cards too much, but:
- most of this cards (neutrals mostly) will let you build several decks, so it's easier to play with friends,
- in each chapter pack, you'll get 3 copies of each agenda and plot cards. It's the same here, every slot in binder will have 3 cards inside.
Now let's think of it as a product not for 1 person, but for several friends (like 3+, or even 2+). Cards that will not be used for sure are:
6 title cards * 2 cores = 12
That's it, 12 cards completely not used. That's a waste...
If there's 6 plot cards, 3 players can use them all. If there's 12 roseroads, 4 players will surely take all of them. They don't have to, but single player also don't have to include 3x Tywin in his deck.

I do agree, that it could be done better. Some kind of special edition that would include exactly 577 cards. An upgrade kit from 234 to 577 cards would be nice also. I don't need 3 manuals, I don't need so many tokens (though, they could be useful in melee, or if several jousts are played on the same core sets), I don't need 3 boxes.
But on the other hand, there are 211 different cards in the core set. We're getting almost twice as many different cards as in any previous core set (except Conquest maybe)! And artwork costs, design costs, playtesting costs. You get this all for the same price as Netrunner, or LOTR.

And FFG is a company, they want money. I'm really sure this kind of core set is going to work for them really nicely. They don't have to estimate "how many upgrade packs do wee need to release on market?", etc., because rules are strict: you want more, you can buy more of exactly the same and you can. We gave you nice product, so we make good money if you all buy 3 core sets.
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John Doe
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I actually agree that this was sweet spot. If I dislike game its easy to resell at a small loss or even price minus card sleeves. If they doubled the cards be a larger waste if needed two set when max cards are 3. Three cards max games would run almost 100 dollars for a game you may not like for whatever reason. Personally I bought 2 sets, enough for variety but not min\maxing for competative.
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To be fair to the OP, I don't mind discussing this topic over and over and over and over again. This is customer feedback and it needs to be continuously reiterated to FFG, with every new LCG release, that it is time and time again, a bad customer experience.
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Mark Johnson
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dyeyk2000 wrote:
To be fair to the OP, I don't mind discussing this topic over and over and over and over again. This is customer feedback and it needs to be continuously reiterated to FFG, with every new LCG release, that it is time and time again, a bad customer experience.


Yeah that explains why their LCGs are all doing so poorly, and they get such low sales on the core set.

Must be why they keep creating new ones - they other ones all failed.

When will they learn????
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Pepsi Twist
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I'm really glad to get pretty much 1 of each of a lot of characters in the box, and even better to know that if I buy another, it'll all be useful!
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Jon Browne
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A lot of gamers do this weird thing where they complain about expansions or games that require multiple core sets. They also complain about huge boxes that cost too much.

Expansions give you, the consumer, much more choice

It's really that simple. I have bought 1 core so far. I will almost certainly buy a 2nd if I want to start deckbuilding, and a 3rd if the games takes off at my FLGS. I would not have bought it if it was a huge £75 box with 750 cards.

I have been given choice by FFG's distribution model.
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Mikael Svensson
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You want upgrade decks? There are people splitting cores and selling each faction separate on Ebay. Buy and your problem is solved. No need for FFG to be involved in something gamers can solve themselves, are there?
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Robbie M.
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Mixx wrote:
You want upgrade decks? There are people splitting cores and selling each faction separate on Ebay. Buy and your problem is solved. No need for FFG to be involved in something gamers can solve themselves, are there?

I can sell the OP an upgrade pack. Just the cards. No junk, No waste.
$80 plus shipping
Paypal only please.

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It also seems like a good marketing tactic. I'm only interested in playing a couple of houses but I want to play competitively. I can introduce it to my mates and if they like the game we can split the boxes and I have new people to play against. And FFG have a couple more customers buying chapter packs.
 
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Csaba L
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Sorry, I am not a BGG forum regular and wasn't try to invent the wheel again here just wanted to express my opinion and my disappointment.
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Not to go too off topic, but I liked that for the Star Wars LCG you only need two core sets for all the cards. One of the advantages of the "pod" mechanic.

To address the OP's post, I would definitely buy an upgrade pack if FFG sold them. I remember back in the day buying multiple copies of the Warhammer: Invasion packs because they hadn't switched to the 3x distribution model yet.
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dyeyk2000 wrote:
To be fair to the OP, I don't mind discussing this topic over and over and over and over again. This is customer feedback and it needs to be continuously reiterated to FFG, with every new LCG release, that it is time and time again, a bad customer experience.


I must be a bad customer, then.
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Matt Dawkins
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To be fair to the OP, I don't mind discussing this topic over and over and over and over again. It needs to be reiterated to new customers with every LCG release time and time again that, for all its flaws, this distribution model is the only realistic way to optimally distribute core sets in this format, as highlighted by other posters earlier in this topic.
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Csaba L
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Thanks for the very intelligent and nice comment.

We are always as great and good as humans as many viewpoints we can accept about a subject.

I am almost changed my stance about this release.
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