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Subject: Rule questions rss

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Sebastian Zarzycki
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- If we finish 3rd set of objectives, do we reshuffle the cards of the player that discarded the most, or not? The rulebook is ambigous in this case.
- I don't understand the Argument variant. If we encounter an Objective with gray bars (and its of the height we agreed on, etc, etc), what do we do exactly? Do we have to be on the very same node, or do we just have to be both on the node of the same color? What's with the movement after that? Does it mean it has to be the very same node and that after landing on the same node, the player has to move, so that he/she doesn't end up on the same node at the end of the round?
- Is the move mandatory or can be skipped? Do I have to move at least once?
- Can we end up on the same node? The rules say that we cannot "cross each other", but it doesn't really explain the terminology.
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Yannick Massa
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Hi Sebastian,

- Only reshuffle after the 1st and 2nd objective deck, not the 3rd
- For Arguments, you have to end up on the exact same node. This is an exception to the usual rule where players cannot be on the same node and only applies when solving an Argument. I'm not sure I understand your question about movement at this point; could you clarify?
-You have to move at least once; no 'passing'
-You cannot pass over a node occupied by the other player (unless solving an Argument, as mentioned above)

Thanks for the feedback, Sebastian! This'll help us clarify any ambiguities in future prints.

Y
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David Turczi
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rattkin wrote:
- If we finish 3rd set of objectives, do we reshuffle the cards of the player that discarded the most, or not? The rulebook is ambigous in this case.

Just reread the rulebook, just in case. It's not ambiguous
rulebook wrote:
Once 8 objectives have been completed on [the first] ring, [..] In
addition, the player with the most discarded emotion cards shuffles these
cards back into their emotion deck.
The second set 8 objectives must be completed on nodes of the middle
ring. Once that has been achieved [...] In addition, the player with the most discarded
emotion cards shuffles these cards back into their emotion deck.
The third and final set of 8 objectives must be completed on nodes of the
inner ring. Once that has been achieved, the players may now attempt to
win, together

There is no mention of reshuffle in the third 8, while it's explicitly mentioned in the first two. So no, there is no third reshuffle.



rattkin wrote:
- I don't understand the Argument variant. If we encounter an Objective with gray bars (and its of the height we agreed on, etc, etc), what do we do exactly? Do we have to be on the very same node, or do we just have to be both on the node of the same color?
Again, I hope the rulebook is fairly clear on that:
rulebook wrote:
the players must both be on the
same node of the corresponding color



rattkin wrote:
What's with the movement after that? Does it mean it has to be the very same node and that after landing on the same node, the player has to move, so that he/she doesn't end up on the same node at the end of the round?
- Is the move mandatory or can be skipped? Do I have to move at least once?
Moving at least one is always mandatory. Not moving is one of the loss conditions in fact.
rattkin wrote:
- Can we end up on the same node? The rules say that we cannot "cross each other", but it doesn't really explain the terminology.

Crossing each other means stepping over each other. During arguments that rule is however overriden:
rulebook wrote:
Following the completion of the objective, a player may exit the node and continue the
game in any direction – this is the only opportunity for the players to cross each other’s path
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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speakeasy wrote:

- For Arguments, you have to end up on the exact same node. This is an exception to the usual rule where players cannot be on the same node and only applies when solving an Argument. I'm not sure I understand your question about movement at this point; could you clarify?


I was referring to the section of manual, that says "following the completion of the objective, a player may exit the node and continue the game in any direction". What this means exactly? If I end a move on the same node, we complete objective, but I still can/have to (which one?) play more cards to exit the node? Does my turn ends immediately, or not?

If we stay on the same node, do you have a way of marking this? There's clearly no space for both beads and they cannot be stacked.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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TDaver wrote:

Just reread the rulebook, just in case. It's not ambiguous


Just reread the rulebook, just in case. It is ambiguous. In the next section "Movement, Balance, Perspective", there's a paragraph saying: "The player with the largest discard pile shuffles those cards with their emotion deck after the players complete a set of 8 Objectives (see Objectives)".

Quote:
Moving at least one is always mandatory. Not moving is one of the loss conditions in fact.


No, it's not. Nowhere it says so. The rulebook only says, that the players lose, when one of them is NOT ABLE to make a valid move. Now I know, that the designer intenion is for this rule to be in place, but it's not in the manual. In fact, the manual is wrong about this, because it says "The player *may* play any number of cards to move", not "have to play at least one".

Thanks of for all the answers. Sorry to nitpick, but the manual could be written better and these questions could be avoided.
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David Turczi
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rattkin wrote:
TDaver wrote:

Just reread the rulebook, just in case. It's not ambiguous


Just reread the rulebook, just in case. It is ambiguous. In the next section "Movement, Balance, Perspective", there's a paragraph saying: "The player with the largest discard pile shuffles those cards with their emotion deck after the players complete a set of 8 Objectives (see Objectives)".

Quote:
Moving at least one is always mandatory. Not moving is one of the loss conditions in fact.


No, it's not. Nowhere it says so. The rulebook only says, that the players lose, when one of them is NOT ABLE to make a valid move. Now I know, that the designer intenion is for this rule to be in place, but it's not in the manual. In fact, the manual is wrong about this, because it says "The player *may* play any number of cards to move", not "have to play at least one".

Thanks of for all the answers. Sorry to nitpick, but the manual could be written better and these questions could be avoided.


Yup, you're right on both counts. The second sentence about the 8 cards is unnecessary, although combined with the text I've quoted I still believe the intention is visible. When I found that one, I stopped reading, see where it got me.

And that "may play any number" should be "must play one or more".
The permissive meaning of "may" is meant to convey the fact that you may play one or more, not the fact that you "may play if you want".
Thanks for the feedback, we've added it to the list
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Yeah, that's the problem if you don't clearly explain the terminology that you're using. In most competitive card games, there's a strict difference between may/must/cannot etc. Same with the previous one - someone might think, that you just gave an example for ring 1 and 2, while implying that the same happens for ring 3, if the further rule is written more globally.

Anyway, now that this is cleared, could you give me/us some hints as to how to play this game well? I must admit, out of curiosity I've tried to play it solo one day, but usually around the second ring, I get stuck.
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David Turczi
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I usually get as far as the 24th objective, then run out of cards while trying to balance myself

Basically the things i'm doing is trying to complete objectives on a node where any/at least one 1-move afterwards will put me back in balance. When my partner will obviously be back in balance next turn, use their cards, otherwise use my own. Don't waste cards to complete objectives every turn excessively, instead positioning myself that no matter what cards my partner uses I'm still not stuck, close to balance, close to center perspective is a good thing always.

But
a. I'm just a novice, I dunno more.
b. start a thread in Strategy and see what all the people who picked it up in Essen think
 
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Dave Chircop
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This playing it solo bit is an interesting question and one I have not managed to quite crack myself. I have played quite a few games of and then we held hands solo (i think 25-30+ now) and I am yet to manage to snag myself a win.

So some hints on how to play well:

1. Often, you do not play a move for yourself, you play a move for your partner. This is okay. An apparently less optimal move for yourself to give space for your partner is most of the time a good play.

2. It is not always important to finish an objective as fast as possible.

3. The argument variant on second ring can be VERY hard if you are missing one of the colours

4. Play the first game with talking

5. Don’t rush.

6. BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE

7. Avoid ending on +2 or -2 unless you already have a plan of how to get out of the rut. (And count on a considerate partner to not take the cards you need to execute it)

8. It is okay to backtrack to the outer circles, don’t be afraid to use them, they are designed to help you get out of a rut.

9. A perspective change (mid-late game) can save your butt. So end somewhere close to the centre, where possible.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Another set of questions:

- When there's not enough cards to draw, do you draw what is there and continue playing (no loss condition triggers?). What if you have to draw, but there's nothing there to draw?
- When you finish last objective from the 3rd set, does it mean that the next consecutive two moves have to finish in circle, or you can play as long as you wish, but still, the winning condition triggers on two consecutive entrances (with balance 0). In other words: can you still move around a bit after finishing last objective, to set up your balance correctly before moving in?
- What is the order of things, when: I finish the last objective from the set and up with balance 0. Do I reshuffle then draw, or draw, then reshuffle?
- What is the order of things, when: I finish the last objective from the set and up with balance 0 and have to/can change perspective? Here, I need the exact order.
- the rulebook mentions 'order of cards' several of times, though I'm not sure, as the order of cards doesn't seem to affect anything.
 
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David Turczi
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The order of things is always

- Moving (and discarding cards)
- Objectives (do I need a new one? do I need to reshuffle?)
- Balance (do I draw new cards?)
- Perspective (do I have to/can I change perspective?)

in the order presented in the rulebook.
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Jarad Bond
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rattkin wrote:
- When there's not enough cards to draw, do you draw what is there and continue playing (no loss condition triggers?). What if you have to draw, but there's nothing there to draw?

Yes. I'm going by memory, but I'm pretty sure the rules explicitly state the loss conditions and not being able to draw a card is not one of them. I think you can play as long as you have cards and can make a legal move. If either player cannot make a legal move on their turn or get too far out of balance, you lose.

rattkin wrote:
- When you finish last objective from the 3rd set, does it mean that the next consecutive two moves have to finish in circle, or you can play as long as you wish, but still, the winning condition triggers on two consecutive entrances (with balance 0). In other words: can you still move around a bit after finishing last objective, to set up your balance correctly before moving in?

You may play as long as you wish. There is no requirement for the next two moves after the last objective to be anything in particular.

rattkin wrote:
- the rulebook mentions 'order of cards' several of times, though I'm not sure, as the order of cards doesn't seem to affect anything.

This has been posted on these forums. The order of cards isn't important. That said, I play so that the oldest card is always used up because it seems like you're not supposed to know what the other emotion is on any given card.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Thanks.
 
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Ben H

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My wife and encountered the movement rule as well. We played allowing passes and read the rule book several times to look for reference to having to move. All we could find was that you lose if there are no available legal moves.

 
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Kevin Peters Unrau
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TDaver wrote:
rulebook wrote:
the players must both be on the same node of the corresponding color


It's the "of the corresponding color" that makes this confusing. What exactly is the corresponding colour in a game that has colour balancing as a central theme? Not to mention it makes it sound like perhaps being on the different nodes but of the same colour might be sufficient. Why mention colour at all unless it might be possible - though wrong - to be on the same node of a non-corresponding colour.

The rules would be clearer with fewer words:

rulebook would be better if it wrote:
The players must both be on the [exact] same node.
 
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Jarad Bond
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PrairieBoy wrote:
TDaver wrote:
rulebook wrote:
the players must both be on the same node of the corresponding color


It's the "of the corresponding color" that makes this confusing. What exactly is the corresponding colour in a game that has colour balancing as a central theme? Not to mention it makes it sound like perhaps being on the different nodes but of the same colour might be sufficient. Why mention colour at all unless it might be possible - though wrong - to be on the same node of a non-corresponding colour.

The rules would be clearer with fewer words:

rulebook would be better if it wrote:
The players must both be on the [exact] same node.

The more concise version you stated would be technically true, but it is only part of the requirement... they have to both be on the same node and it has to be a node of a color that corresponds to the argument card. As long as you had the rest of it in a follow-up sentence, that would be fine as well, but you need to be explicit because an argument is a different situation than a standard goal. Players cannot assume that all requirements of a standard goal also apply to an argument when they are not the same thing.
 
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mfl134
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rattkin wrote:
speakeasy wrote:

- For Arguments, you have to end up on the exact same node. This is an exception to the usual rule where players cannot be on the same node and only applies when solving an Argument. I'm not sure I understand your question about movement at this point; could you clarify?


I was referring to the section of manual, that says "following the completion of the objective, a player may exit the node and continue the game in any direction". What this means exactly? If I end a move on the same node, we complete objective, but I still can/have to (which one?) play more cards to exit the node? Does my turn ends immediately, or not?

If we stay on the same node, do you have a way of marking this? There's clearly no space for both beads and they cannot be stacked.


Has this been answered? perhaps I'm skipping it accidentally.
 
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Jarad Bond
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mfl134 wrote:
rattkin wrote:
speakeasy wrote:

- For Arguments, you have to end up on the exact same node. This is an exception to the usual rule where players cannot be on the same node and only applies when solving an Argument. I'm not sure I understand your question about movement at this point; could you clarify?


I was referring to the section of manual, that says "following the completion of the objective, a player may exit the node and continue the game in any direction". What this means exactly? If I end a move on the same node, we complete objective, but I still can/have to (which one?) play more cards to exit the node? Does my turn ends immediately, or not?

If we stay on the same node, do you have a way of marking this? There's clearly no space for both beads and they cannot be stacked.


Has this been answered? perhaps I'm skipping it accidentally.

The rules for an argument simply state that someone has to end their turn on the same node as their partner, and the node color has to correspond to your argument. That's it.

The rules for an argument make an exception for the normal restriction of not being able to do this. They don't go on to say you get free movements or anything else - they simply say that you may exit in either direction. So, you don't get an immediate free move - they just say you can go either way with normal movement on the following turn. In this way, it is explicitly stated that you may permanently cross paths with each other using an argument, and only by using an argument.
 
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