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Subject: Does concealment work for hexside cover? rss

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Josh Luub
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Say I have a squad which is the target of a fire attack. The fire attack comes through a side of my hex that has a hedge, which gives me 1 cover. If I play a concealment action, does it reduce the Fire Attack Total by 1?

I'm not sure because the action says it reduces the attack total by the cover of the hex, but the hex doesn't really have cover (e.g. if you were to try to rally in that hex, the hedge wouldn't apply). But it does count as cover for the fire attack that is currently occuring.

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Jeff Coon
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There is a difference between cover and hindrance. Hindrances between the shooter and the target subtract from the to-hit roll, but do nothing to aid in defense. Conversely, cover is only the terrain the target is currently occupying, and adds to the defense roll. So no, concealment has nothing to do with the attack roll or the hindrance, and may not be used on the hedge in question. It could only modify your defense roll if you (the target) were physically in a hex with a terrain feature that provides cover.
 
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
So no, concealment has nothing to do with the attack roll or the hindrance, and may not be used on the hedge in question.


This is incorrect. Concealment CAN be used on any Fire Attack, and modifies the Fire Attack Total downwards by X where X equals the Cover that the targeted player is using.

So, for example, a Squad in an Open Ground hex (normally Cover 0) is shot at but the shot crosses a Hedge as it enters the hex (giving the targeted unit Cover 1 for that shot). A Concealment Action played before that squad makes its Defense Roll will lower the firing player's Fire Attack Total by 1.

This is covered in rules T87 and T97 as well as the Terrain Chart in the Wall/Hedge/Fence section.
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
There is a difference between cover and hindrance.


Indeed there is - but the OP wasn't talking about Hindrances.

Quote:
Hindrances between the shooter and the target subtract from the to-hit roll, but do nothing to aid in defense.


Incorrect. Hindrances DO aid in defense by lowering the firing player's Firepower before the Attack Roll is made. This is covered in rule 10.3.2.

Quote:
Conversely, cover is only the terrain the target is currently occupying,


Incorrect. As stated above, Walls and Hedges provide Cover if a Fire Attack crosses that hexside as it enters the targeted hex. At other times - like during a Recover or Rout Order, for example - your statement is true.
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
Say I have a squad which is the target of a fire attack. The fire attack comes through a side of my hex that has a hedge, which gives me 1 cover. If I play a concealment action, does it reduce the Fire Attack Total by 1?


Yes.
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Josh Luub
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Thanks!
 
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Chad Jensen
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squonk wrote:
Thanks!


You're welcome!

Now get of the computer and get back to playing.
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Josh Luub
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I would, but I think my boss would disapprove. I'm at work!
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D Clevenger
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That's what the area under your desk is for. cool
 
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Jeff Coon
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Chad Jensen wrote:
This is incorrect. Concealment CAN be used on any Fire Attack, and modifies the Fire Attack Total downwards by X where X equals the Cover that the targeted player is using.


Hmmmm, I had thought concealment was played during the defensive roll, not subtracted from the Fire Attack... Looks like we've been playing that one wrong!

Chad Jensen wrote:
Incorrect. Hindrances DO aid in defense by lowering the firing player's Firepower before the Attack Roll is made. This is covered in rule 10.3.2.


That's what I meant, I just mis-spoke. Hindrances act as a negative modifier for the Fire Attack total. (not subtracted from the to-hit roll, like I said). I basically meant that the Hindrance is subtracted from the attack, not added to the defense.

Chad Jensen wrote:
Incorrect. As stated above, Walls and Hedges provide Cover if a Fire Attack crosses that hexside as it enters the targeted hex. At other times - like during a Recover or Rout Order, for example - your statement is true.


Really? Looks like we've missed this rule, too. Can you give me a rules reference to re-read on this? So if there is a hedge between me and my target, the hedge both 1) acts as a negative modifier on my Fire Attack, and 2) Acts as a cover bonus for the defender?


Looks like I won't be answering any rules questions until I do a review.
 
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
I had thought concealment was played during the defensive roll, not subtracted from the Fire Attack


Rule A29 reads: "Concealment may only be played just prior to the player making a Defense Roll" and "...reduce the Fire Attack Total by that amount."

Quote:
(not subtracted from the to-hit roll, like I said).


But Hindrances ARE subtracted from the to-hit roll when using Ordnance. (rule O20.2.3)

When NOT using Ordnance, Hindrances subtract from the Firepower instead. (rules 10.3.2 and O20.3.2)

Quote:
Really? Looks like we've missed this rule, too. Can you give me a rules reference to re-read on this?


I did (in my first post above): T87 and T97, as well as the relevant section of the Terrain Chart. Pay particular attention to the "Cover" sections within those two rules.

Quote:
So if there is a hedge between me and my target, the hedge both 1) acts as a negative modifier on my Fire Attack


No. A Hedge is not a Hindrance, it is an Obstacle. Reread rules T78.3 and T78.4, as well as 10.2 and 10.3.

Quote:
, and 2) Acts as a cover bonus for the defender?


Only if "the Fire Attack crossed the Wall/Hedge as it entered the target hex" according to the Hedge and Wall rules in the Terrain section.

Hope this helps! Let me know if you need further clarification.
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Chad Winter
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This is a good place to pose the question I've been wondering about walls and hedges with regards to cover.

Say I'm targeting a unit that is in a hex with a wall/hedge that is, for the purposes of this question, exactly one hexside long. My LOS doesn't travel through the side of the hex with the wall/hedge in it, but DOES travel through the EXACT POINT where the wall/hedge hexside meets a non-wall hexside. Does the target gain the cover of the wall/hedge?

A concrete example would be if I were in hex N3 firing at a unit in hex L3 on map 11. LOS travels into the target hex not through a side of the hex, but through a point where two hexsides meet.

My feeling is that yes, the target does get the cover simply because a straight line drawn from the center points of the hexes physically touches the depiction of the hedge. True?

 
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Josh Luub
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chad56s wrote:

My feeling is that yes, the target does get the cover simply because a straight line drawn from the center points of the hexes physically touches the depiction of the hedge. True?


I would say this is true. The LOS touches the depiction of the wall/hedge, so the cover takes effect, just like any other terrain.

Along a similar line, don't forget that smoke/blaze covers the entire hex it is in, including the six hexsides! So if you're sighting down a hexspine between two hexes, one of which has smoke, you have to count the smoke hindrance.
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
but DOES travel through the EXACT POINT where the wall/hedge hexside meets a non-wall hexside. Does the target gain the cover of the wall/hedge?


Easy: does the LOS string touch the physical depiction of the wall/hedge as it enters the targeted hex? If yes, than you get its Cover; if no, then you do not.

Quote:
if I were in hex N3 firing at a unit in hex L3 on map 11. LOS travels into the target hex not through a side of the hex, but through a point where two hexsides meet.


The LOS thread touches the physical depiction of the Hedge as it enters hex L3 so the targeted player receives the Cover of the Hedge.

In every instance that I am aware of on all twelve maps, hexside terrain spills over the vertices ever so slightly in order to account for this.

Quote:
My feeling is that yes, the target does get the cover simply because a straight line drawn from the center points of the hexes physically touches the depiction of the hedge. True?


Exactly so.
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Chad Jensen
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Along a similar line, don't forget that smoke/blaze covers the entire hex it is in, including the six hexsides! So if you're sighting down a hexspine between two hexes, one of which has smoke, you have to count the smoke hindrance.


Correct.

And to take this example one more step: if you're sighting down a hexspine between two hexes, one of which has a Blaze, your LOS is blocked.
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Ronster Zero
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Where is your dedication....

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Chee-Yan Hiew
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Talking about concealment, how does it work for a road hex in the open where cover is already -1.

Is the Fire attack reduced by -1 which adds to the total by 1 (since it is a double negative, ie minus -1 = plus 1)

or

is the concealment action not worth playing in roads just like in open ground where there is no cover to speak of?

I suspect it is the former.

Thanks
 
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Chad Jensen
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I suspect it is the former.


Correct. Playing Concealment with zero Cover is pointless (unless you just want to get an otherwise useless card out of your hand). Playing Concealment with negative Cover is counterproductive.
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Frosty Coo
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Just had to say a quick thank you - playing the game 11 years after the original post, we've still got this question!
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