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Subject: Placing new tokens in the final round? rss

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Damon Asher
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In our game today, a wall was cleared in the final card-playing round after I had gone out. Following the rules as written, this meant that the last player, who claimed the second token on a wall, got to place new wall tokens and then throw a card down on it. As a result, she claimed those 2 tokens uncontested in the final scoring rounds. This seemed rather cheap, especially in a game of this weight. It almost seems like there's a rule missing, something along the lines of "No new tokens are placed after a player goes out."

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Any chance the FFG english rules differ from the German on this point?
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Devon T
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We had the same thing happen in our game last night. The rules state that there is one round of play after someone plays their last cards but then it says that progress checks continue. Indefinitely??! I like the interpretation that since you only do progress checks during an actual turn, you can only pick up tiles as a result of progress checks during that final round. Otherwise it makes no sense that up until this last round there is a hot and heavy exhaustive battle to squeeze out majorities and then someone just gets lucky because they plunk down one card as the last play and takes both tokens.

We really need official clarification on this.
 
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Jon Greisz
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I don't believe that you would have a chance to play the other card. Just do progress checks. This allows both tokens to be claimed if 2 people are contesting a wall piece. ie. 1st person wins a constested piece, then gets to pick, this might make the 2nd person win the 2nd token if one existed.
 
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Geo
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TherMight wrote:
The rules state that there is one round of play after someone plays their last cards but then it says that progress checks continue. Indefinitely??


Yes.
 
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Damon Asher
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It makes sense that the progress checks continue until all tokens possible are taken. My problem is with people clearing a wall and placing new tokens in the last card-playing round!
 
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Steve+Jackie McKeogh
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The German rules certainly don't help on this point. I've never actually played the game but did do a translation from the German (the one posted here). It would seem that the best thing to do would be to adopt a 'house rule' that no new tokens can be turned over once one player has played all their cards.
 
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Damon Asher
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Fledermaushaus wrote:
The German rules certainly don't help on this point. I've never actually played the game but did do a translation from the German (the one posted here). It would seem that the best thing to do would be to adopt a 'house rule' that no new tokens can be turned over once one player has played all their cards.


I agree that seems to be the way to go.

I just wondering if I'm missing something though. Maybe it's important to try to not be the first one out so that you can scoop these easy points at the end. The problem with that, though, is that the player to your left can really hand the game to you if they go out at the right time. That sure doesn't seem very Knizia-y.

I think I will go with the house rule unless a reason not to becomes apparent. Hopefully I'm not knocking something out of wack.

 
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It is important not to end the game first as the other players then have an advantage over you.

You can keep some very good cards in your hand which you can play at once (example 3-4 warriors) when the other players have 1-2 cards remaining, if you plan to go out first.
 
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Neil Figuracion
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As I read the rules (mind you I just bought the game two days ago) no cards are played once a player has played their final card. That final card played signals the last round of card plays and then a final round of verifying walls.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but I believe it says something to the effect of: when play reaches the player who announced the final round, no more cards are played. I also remember that there was a rule about unclaimed tokens on walls do not count towards final scores.

I'll try to verify this later, but at the moment I'm a little confused.
 
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Damon Asher
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Actually, the rules specify there's one more round of normal play once the first player goes out.

From the rules:

When one player has used up his play deck and played
all of his wall cards from his hand, he announces,
“Guangzhou!” or, “It is the last round!” All other players
then take one more turn each.
When play returns to the player who declared the last
round, who of course has no cards, no further cards are
played by anyone. However, play continues around with
progress checks, since players may still be able to claim
tokens.


The issue is whether a player can play new tokens in that final round. The rules don't forbid it, so it seems to be allowed. However, it also seems like a very cheap way to score a lot of points, unless you assume that an important part of the game strategy is that you want to be sure that you're not the one to go out first.
 
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Neil Figuracion
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After playing my second game yesterday, I'm much less confused. As for playing new tokens in the final round of cardplay, that would seem to be the way it works. Yes, after you check for tile claims, as long as both tiles were claimed you would then place two new tiles. If you were to play a wall card uncontested for those two pieces they would be yours after two non-cardplay rounds. This means it is important to create tie situations where tiles are left unclaimed.

That's not to say I have a strategy, but that's how it looks to me.
 
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Chris Pimlott
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My understanding was that there is only one since progress-check round after the last round of normal play. Therefore the first marker would be placed on the players walls but since there is not a second progress-check round, the second marker is not claimed and so neither scores.

But I don't have the rules in front of me.
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Krisse Holm
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pimlottc wrote:
My understanding was that there is only one since progress-check round after the last round of normal play. Therefore the first marker would be placed on the players walls but since there is not a second progress-check round, the second marker is not claimed and so neither scores.


This interpretation of the rules is the way to go people. Think about it, it follows the flow of play and is very sensible. I think that the rules just expect you to understand it the same way as the last round of card-playing. ie. "the play continues _around_ with progress checks".. at least this would seem to say that it goes one time around the table to see if someone put down a deciding card on the last card-playing round.

Would like to have clarification still though, but this is the way we've been playing and the scores have been the tightest..
 
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Steve Hope
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I really don't think this should come up very often. It's only the very last player who can reap this advantage, and the player before them should be well aware of any opportunities the last player has to do this, and they can prevent it.

I think progress checks continue indefinitely, and that way of playing the game seems perfectly reasonable to me in terms of results.

EDIT: Well, they can USUALLY prevent it. It would be really unusual for a player to have played sufficient cards that they can absorb one tile and still have a number big enough to beat another player playing into that wall section.
 
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Krisse Holm
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stephenhope wrote:
It would be really unusual for a player to have played sufficient cards that they can absorb one tile and still have a number big enough to beat another player playing into that wall section.


True. I guess this is just one of those times that you have to go with intuition =)

Would be really nifty to get official clarification though, but it's not that big an issue anyway. Both ways work if you adjust your playing strategy.

Talking about TGWOC here made me want to start playing it again which is always great.
 
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Steve Hope
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Yeah, I'm really impressed with GWOC. I think it's one of Knizia's best efforts.
 
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Michael Bailey
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The rules also say that a token left on the cards at the end of the game is not scored. If you continued around indefinitely claiming tokens, then there would never be a token left on a card. I play that after one person plays their last card, everyone but them gets one more full turn and then everyone gets once chance to claim tokens (progress check).

Michael
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Chris Hansen
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yogurtearl wrote:
The rules also say that a token left on the cards at the end of the game is not scored. If you continued around indefinitely claiming tokens, then there would never be a token left on a card. I play that after one person plays their last card, everyone but them gets one more full turn and then everyone gets once chance to claim tokens (progress check).

Michael


That is how I've played it as well. After someone has played their last card, we have one more round of play and then a round of progress checks. Then the game is done. Any tokens left on the wall at this point are lost. The reason we play it that was is because of the rule you stated above. If players can keep claiming tokens indefinitely, that rule wouldn't exist.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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yogurtearl wrote:
The rules also say that a token left on the cards at the end of the game is not scored. If you continued around indefinitely claiming tokens, then there would never be a token left on a card.


Not so. If there is a tie for second place then a token would be left.

Quote:
I play that after one person plays their last card, everyone but them gets one more full turn and then everyone gets once chance to claim tokens (progress check).


That is, I believe, incorrect.
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stephenhope wrote:
It would be really unusual for a player to have played sufficient cards that they can absorb one tile and still have a number big enough to beat another player playing into that wall section.


Not if they take the smaller number first. Common play with two players.
 
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drazen m
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HI, I had same problem, and I have asked publisher, and I recieved this e-mail. Answer is YES yOU CAN PUT new TOKEN in last round.
thanks a lot

Ah yes.

I worded that poorly (I meant once you were into the progress checks only section but looking at your example, you were referring to the last normal play anyway). At any rate, it seems you only care about whether the two new tiles are put up. The answer is yes as progress checks continue until all wall tiles are taken or tied (including the placement of new tiles). This is of course going by the letter of the law. Let me know if you have further concerns.

Hope this one helps!!!

FFG


On Jul 15, 2008, at 1:42 AM, Dražen Martinović wrote:

> hi!
> no you didn't help me, becouse it is not true. After somebody
> DECLARED LAST round, ALL other players CAN play CARDS one more ROUND
> WITH cards, but my question is : IN Last round, player do first
> progres check, and IF wall is clear 2 tokens are taken DOES WE put NEW
> tokens in last round or no, accoursing to the rule YES, becouse it is
> written that player has one more round, but I think it should me
> mention in rules, I know that I playcard on last round, but what
> abount 2 new token ?
> Thanks a lot.
> Drazen
 
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ChToHe
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So after several plays of the game, I agree the end game for GWOC needs some work. This is somewhat surprising since I find most of Knizia's games quite polished and have a great endings.

Here is my impression after several plays:

Having new tiles flipped over at the last round is not really fair, especially if the tiles are quite high in bonus points. This allows the player to claim the wall, get the tokens, place new bonus tokens and then possibly claim those as well. Since this game is tightly contested throughout, the end game scenario makes most of the players feel a little "cheated" and definitely anti-climactic.

Our original interpretation of the rules was that we played one extra round of progress checks after the end game is triggered. This made the game really strategic toward the end as players become really defensive and often times sacrifice their points in order to prevent other players from getting points.

Player order also becomes really important since progress checks are made first from the player that triggers the end game. Thus, if you have the lead in a wall, but your progress checks comes AFTER the person who is second in the wall, you will never finish the wall and hence, you will not capture the token. This is frustrating, but does lead to a weird strategic play..i.e. perhaps settling for second place in the wall to claim the smaller token in previous rounds prior to the end game.

In either case, the game toward the end is really a brain burner. We spent a lot of time discussing the different scenarios and in the end, all but one of the walls ended up being claimed by two players (due to the order of the progress checks).

I highly doubt Knizia intended for this to happen. All his games are simple and elegant. Yet, allowing the final round tokens to be placed really cheapens the game after a fierce battle for control.

I think we may try to insert a house rule to prevent new tokens from being drawn in the last round (as suggested by a previous entry to the post) and also having infinite progress checks. Thus, the only strategic way to prevent a player from claiming the first token is to tie-up the second token such that the wall is never fully built and scored.
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Rick Kimmel
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Ok, it's good to see I'm not the only one who was confused about the rule. On only my second game I was able to place 2 new tiles, a 7 and a 5, in the last round and then claim them for a free 12 points. That's a lot of points.

While it appears that it's legal (per FFG) I think I'm going to go with the house rule that you can only claim one of them when I play with my kids (ages 9 and 10) until they get a better grasp of the strategies.

BTW, my kids both loved it even with that minor rules issue. Can't wait to play some more with them.
 
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fer moros
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I would go with the rules as worded on the 2006 file (rules and quick reference guide)

"Following the last player’s actions,
each player makes one last progress check to see if he can claim more tokens."



No indefinetly checking , just one round of checking

happy games!

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Dan
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drasher25 wrote:
In our game today, a wall was cleared in the final card-playing round after I had gone out. Following the rules as written, this meant that the last player, who claimed the second token on a wall, got to place new wall tokens and then throw a card down on it. As a result, she claimed those 2 tokens uncontested in the final scoring rounds. This seemed rather cheap, especially in a game of this weight. It almost seems like there's a rule missing, something along the lines of "No new tokens are placed after a player goes out."

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Any chance the FFG english rules differ from the German on this point?


I don't know if I should be resurrecting the thread, but I just got the game, so the question is of interest to my group.

Whether or not the final player getting to place new tokens feels "cheap" or not seems irrelevant to me. The rules are very plain in saying that once someone plays their last card, "All other players
then take one more turn each." It doesn't add any exceptions to the normal turn here, and part of the turn is drawing two new tokens to replace a completed wall section during the progress check phase.

This would then allow the player (last or not) to play a card or two during the 2nd and 3rd phases.

As for the final round of progress checks, the version of the rules I have (c2006) are ambiguous as noted:

Quote:
However, play continues around with progress checks, since players may still be able to claim tokens.


This doesn't make it clear to me whether play "continues around" one more time, or an infinite number of times. If you go around only once more then anyone claiming the first token on a wall section wouldn't benefit from it unless someone else doing a progress check after them claimed the second token.

If you keep going around and around until no more tokens can be claimed then it would allow one player to take both tokens on any remaining wall sections that he alone played on.

This is what happened the second time we played, and I got an additional 15 points because I was the last person to play and I had two cards and two brand new wall sections to play them on.

I'm going to make a house rule to go along with the "one final progress" check round. It seems ok to me to have a new wall section started in that final round of regular play, but it doesn't seem cool that the person who happens to be last has an opportunity to get a double score on those new sections by doing two progress checks in a row.
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