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Subject: Hades shard installation rss

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David Rogers
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Looking for clarification here. Corp has jackson installed, runner runs archives (has a hades shard in hand, but corp doesnt know this). What is the latest point that hades could be installed? Is it after the latest jackson pop or before? Does the runner need to announce he intends to access or install hades when he runs archives - if so when should he announce this?
Same questions applies for utopia shard i suppose.
 
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Nova Cat
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The installation of Hades Shard through its ability replaces the act of accessing cards. Therefore, it happens after the runner has declined to jack out, and after the last paid ability window. The corp will need to have used Jackson Howard before that if he's going to at all.

The runner does not need to announce his intention to install Hades Shard until he actually installs it.
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Nushura
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Completely agree with the response above me. Let me be a bit more technical and refer you to the timing of a run diagram that is in the FAQs.

Using jackson is a paid ability, and can be used several places. The last one is 4.3. Once the runner says he wants to access cards.

The moment to use the Shard is in 4.5 where he would properly access the cards and in this moment he says "wait! I wanna instead do XXX". Jackson cannot be used in response to that.

 
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David Rogers
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Hi thats what i thought as well. Interestingly, often you can run on archives (forcing a pop of jackson) and then install hades. In effect you are getting two archives acceses for the price of one run (as you forced them to clean archives now and you have one saved for later).
 
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Nova Cat
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rogedavi wrote:
Hi thats what i thought as well. Interestingly, often you can run on archives (forcing a pop of jackson) and then install hades. In effect you are getting two archives acceses for the price of one run (as you forced them to clean archives now and you have one saved for later).

If you suspect that they have agendas in Archives, but they have a Jackson out and ready, you can also pull a bluff with something like Retrieval Run. You play the event, and then when it comes time to access, you just access normally instead of taking Retrieval Run's effect. Most corp players won't pop Jackson, even if they have agendas in Archives, because they don't think you're going to access cards.
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Scott Forster
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Novacat wrote:
rogedavi wrote:
Hi thats what i thought as well. Interestingly, often you can run on archives (forcing a pop of jackson) and then install hades. In effect you are getting two archives acceses for the price of one run (as you forced them to clean archives now and you have one saved for later).

If you suspect that they have agendas in Archives, but they have a Jackson out and ready, you can also pull a bluff with something like Retrieval Run. You play the event, and then when it comes time to access, you just access normally instead of taking Retrieval Run's effect. Most corp players won't pop Jackson, even if they have agendas in Archives, because they don't think you're going to access cards.


I once won a game by doing a Retrieval Run through ice with an Eater, then dropping and popping the Hades Shard. Corp didn't use Jackson because they thought I was just trying to install my Femme, and I couldn't access more than 0 cards because of Eater.
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Grant Whitesell
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skotothalamos wrote:
Corp didn't use Jackson because they thought I was just trying to install my Femme, and I couldn't access more than 0 cards because of Eater.


That is wicked. Man, do I hate Eater. It's the "replacement effect" breaker of choice, that's for sure.
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Andy Mills
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skotothalamos wrote:
Novacat wrote:
rogedavi wrote:
Hi thats what i thought as well. Interestingly, often you can run on archives (forcing a pop of jackson) and then install hades. In effect you are getting two archives acceses for the price of one run (as you forced them to clean archives now and you have one saved for later).

If you suspect that they have agendas in Archives, but they have a Jackson out and ready, you can also pull a bluff with something like Retrieval Run. You play the event, and then when it comes time to access, you just access normally instead of taking Retrieval Run's effect. Most corp players won't pop Jackson, even if they have agendas in Archives, because they don't think you're going to access cards.


I once won a game by doing a Retrieval Run through ice with an Eater, then dropping and popping the Hades Shard. Corp didn't use Jackson because they thought I was just trying to install my Femme, and I couldn't access more than 0 cards because of Eater.


Wouldn't Eater's restriction also prevent you from using Hades Shard's ability during the run?
 
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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manydills wrote:
skotothalamos wrote:
Novacat wrote:
rogedavi wrote:
Hi thats what i thought as well. Interestingly, often you can run on archives (forcing a pop of jackson) and then install hades. In effect you are getting two archives acceses for the price of one run (as you forced them to clean archives now and you have one saved for later).

If you suspect that they have agendas in Archives, but they have a Jackson out and ready, you can also pull a bluff with something like Retrieval Run. You play the event, and then when it comes time to access, you just access normally instead of taking Retrieval Run's effect. Most corp players won't pop Jackson, even if they have agendas in Archives, because they don't think you're going to access cards.


I once won a game by doing a Retrieval Run through ice with an Eater, then dropping and popping the Hades Shard. Corp didn't use Jackson because they thought I was just trying to install my Femme, and I couldn't access more than 0 cards because of Eater.


Wouldn't Eater's restriction also prevent you from using Hades Shard's ability during the run?


It might, but he installed Hades on 4.5 (structure of a run) and there is no paid ability window after that (during a run). So the next possible window to use paid abilities is step 1.2 (structure of a turn - runner's turn). Because it's runner's turn - runner is going to resolve his/hers abilities first.

So it doesn't matter actually Everything was legit.
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Andy Mills
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But once Hades is installed, the Corp can use Jackson during 4.5.
 
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Scott Forster
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manydills wrote:
But once Hades is installed, the Corp can use Jackson during 4.5.


At what paid ability step?
 
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Nova Cat
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manydills wrote:
But once Hades is installed, the Corp can use Jackson during 4.5.

Negative. Jackson Howard must be used during a paid ability window, and there isn't one in 4.5.
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Andy Mills
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Whoops. Right you are.
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Henri Hein
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I'm confused.

Quote:
Hades Shard
Whenever you make a successful run on Archives, instead of accessing cards, you may install Hades Shard from your grip, ignoring all costs.


If you use Eater to break any subroutines, you cannot access cards. How can you install Hades Shard instead of accessing cards, if you cannot access cards? I thought that was not allowed.

Edit: Is it because the "you cannot access more than 0 cards" phrasing?
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Nova Cat
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hankdane wrote:
Edit: Is it because the "you cannot access more than 0 cards" phrasing?

That's exactly it. Eater doesn't prevent the "access cards" step, it simply modifies the number of cards you can access. Replacement effects don't care how many card you would have accessed, only that the appropriate step exists.

It's worth noting that if you use Eater during a run on Archives (and don't use a replacement effect), you will still turn all face-down cards in Archives face-up, because that's part of the process of accessing cards in Archives. It's just that you wouldn't be able to actually access any of them, which can be useful against certain corps.
 
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