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Subject: LOS at elevation rss

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mark selleck
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Im just playing through the Raid on Taivu scenario solo, though I think I may have got the LOS rule wrong at elevations.

I had the sniper appear on map 30 hex D4 but now I realize he would not have LOS to the buildings on map 29 since he is on a level 1 terrain and the grass between is also level 1 (so would be blocked since intervening terrain is at the same height as the attacker)

Just want to know if I am interpreting this right?
 
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Jeff Lewis
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Your Sniper in 30D4 can see over the Kunai Grass to the some of the hexes you mention on Map 29. LOS to 29C3 is blocked by the Building in 29C2. LOS to 29C2 clips the edge of the Light Jungle in 29D8 so it is degraded once. LOS to 29D2 is degraded twice by the Light Jungle in 30D8 and 29D1.

For a visual, your Sniper is lying prone on the Hill and the Kunai Grass is even with the top of the Hill, so he can see out past it (hexes 30C7 and 30D7 would be degraded by one-hex shadow.

The bigger problem is that you placed your Sniper in a Clear/Hill hex, and I trust a Spider Hole, which a Japanese Sniper can do (13.1.2), but it's a bit risky as it leaves him unprotected.

Jeff
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mark selleck
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Your visual is what I had first thought before referring to the rules but then I read " LOS traced to a lower elevation hex is blocked / degraded if it crosses blocking/degrading terrain that is at the same total height as the attackers hex elevation"

so using this the attackers terrain is at level 1 and the blocking Kunai grass is at level 1, so the same height as the attacker which now leads me to believe that all hexes past the grass are blocked.

The paragraph that talks about blind hexes states the unit is firing OVER the hex and the only time the rules talk about firing over a hex is when the attacker is at a higher level than the blocking / degrading terrain.

So what I can gather from the rules as written is unit at the same height as blocking / degrading terrain is the LOS is blocked full stop.
Units located higher than the blocking / degrading terrain have a 1 hex shadow behind the blocking / degrading terrain.

As for the risk, I noticed it was though it was taken as the Japanese needed to put something in the way and my first thought was they had a good field of fire. The US have ignored his so far as they are trying to reduce the Japanese in the village, thought the sniper has caused some minor issues for the US
 
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mark selleck
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Also reading more into the LOS it appears the example (picture on page 26 end of the first column and text start of the 2nd column) is incorrect as both units are on level 1 hills and the degrading terrain is level 1 thus as per the rules " Blocking / degrading terrain at the same elevation as both the attackers and targets hex blocks / degrades LOS"
 
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:
Your visual is what I had first thought before referring to the rules but then I read " LOS traced to a lower elevation hex is blocked / degraded if it crosses blocking/degrading terrain that is at the same total height as the attackers hex elevation"

so using this the attackers terrain is at level 1 and the blocking Kunai grass is at level 1, so the same height as the attacker which now leads me to believe that all hexes past the grass are blocked.

The paragraph that talks about blind hexes states the unit is firing OVER the hex and the only time the rules talk about firing over a hex is when the attacker is at a higher level than the blocking / degrading terrain.

So what I can gather from the rules as written is unit at the same height as blocking / degrading terrain is the LOS is blocked full stop.
Units located higher than the blocking / degrading terrain have a 1 hex shadow behind the blocking / degrading terrain.

As for the risk, I noticed it was though it was taken as the Japanese needed to put something in the way and my first thought was they had a good field of fire. The US have ignored his so far as they are trying to reduce the Japanese in the village, thought the sniper has caused some minor issues for the US


If the Kunai Grass was also at Level 1 it would be blocked but it's at ground level here, thus it only blocks the two shadow-effect hexes I mentioned. The Sniper is at Level 1. The Kunai Grass is at ground level and rises to Level 1; it's at the level the Sniper's feet are at. That's why it doesn't block to the Buildings on Map 29. The Kunai Grass does throw the shadow-effect on the two hexes I mentioned though.

 
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:
Also reading more into the LOS it appears the example (picture on page 26 end of the first column and text start of the 2nd column) is incorrect as both units are on level 1 hills and the degrading terrain is level 1 thus as per the rules " Blocking / degrading terrain at the same elevation as both the attackers and targets hex blocks / degrades LOS"


The only error is that 32G2 is not Level-2. Still, with both units at Level-1 Hills, they do have a clear LOS to each other as they are firing over the top of the Light Jungle (the top of the Light Jungle is at Level-1, same as the units. It's neither higher or lower.
 
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mark selleck
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I totally understand what you are saying but the rules just don't seem to suggest this.

As Kunai grass (level 1) is on clear terrain (0 elevation) so total height of 1 ( 0 + 1 )
Hill is elevation 1 for a total height of 1, therefore the Kunai grass is at the same total height of the hill. The rules don't talk about the unit being higher the rules just refer to comparing the blocking / degrading hex to the attackers "hex" height and in the above case they are both 1 and the rules only talk about being able to see over hex if the attacker is at a higher level.

I know in my head how this should all work but after reading the rules it just dosnt seem to match up with what im thinking or you are saying.

Please if you could point me to something in the rules I may be missing that will help me understand the rules better.

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Ruben Rigillo
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According to 3.1 LOS rules intervening level 1 obstacles block LOS traced from other level 1 hexes to level 0. SAME elevation blocking /degrading terrain hex always impedes LOS to be traced downward.
.....I always play it so.....
 
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:
I totally understand what you are saying but the rules just don't seem to suggest this.

As Kunai grass (level 1) is on clear terrain (0 elevation) so total height of 1 ( 0 + 1 )
Hill is elevation 1 for a total height of 1, therefore the Kunai grass is at the same total height of the hill. The rules don't talk about the unit being higher the rules just refer to comparing the blocking / degrading hex to the attackers "hex" height and in the above case they are both 1 and the rules only talk about being able to see over hex if the attacker is at a higher level.

I know in my head how this should all work but after reading the rules it just dosnt seem to match up with what im thinking or you are saying.

Please if you could point me to something in the rules I may be missing that will help me understand the rules better.



The Clear arrow between the two units in the example you mentioned should be enough. Would adding the words "lower or equal" assuage your misgivings about the rule?
 
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Jeff Lewis
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Qwirz wrote:
According to 3.1 LOS rules intervening level 1 obstacles block LOS traced from other level 1 hexes to level 0. SAME elevation blocking /degrading terrain hex always impedes LOS to be traced downward.
.....I always play it so.....


Ruben, I've already gone over this with you on the lnl forum. The rule was missing the word blocks/degrades previously, and has been amended. v4.1 is the standard now.
 
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mark selleck
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I think it may confuse the situation more as the rules already state that if the height is the same (equal) LOS is blocked / degraded. This has been my point I know logically what the LOS should be and the examples match up with that but the rules text dose not.

So with my sniper.

He is on a level 1 hill (height of 1, yes?)

There is an enemy on clear ground 5 hexes away (level 0, correct?)

Between them is Kunai grass (adjacent to attacker) (level 1) on ground level (level 0) (1 + 0 for a total of level 1, yes?)

So the Sniper is on level 1 the target is one level 0 and the terrain is level 1.

So the attackers hex and the terrain are at the same height thus as per the rules " LOS traced to a lower elevation hex is blocked / degraded if it crosses blocking/degrading terrain that is at the same total height as the attackers hex elevation"

In my head the sniper should be able to fire over the terrain with a 1 hex shadow but the above rules quote dose not allow it.

Maybe if it read :

LOS traced to a lower elevation hex is blocked / degraded if it crosses blocking/degrading terrain that is at the same total height as the attackers hex elevation providing the target hex is adjacent to said blocking / degrading terrain. Other wise the attacker can fire over the blocking / degrading terrain.
 
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Ruben Rigillo
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Fenster400 wrote:
Qwirz wrote:
According to 3.1 LOS rules intervening level 1 obstacles block LOS traced from other level 1 hexes to level 0. SAME elevation blocking /degrading terrain hex always impedes LOS to be traced downward.
.....I always play it so.....:what:


Ruben, I've already gone over this with you on the lnl forum. The rule was missing the word blocks/degrades previously, and has been amended. v4.1 is the standard now.


Yes...but...isn't Kunai blocking terrain?
EDIT: should,work the same in 4.0....
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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I think the sniper can't see the target because of the "plateau effect". It is the same as if there was 3 hexes of level 1 hill between the attacker and the target. Now, in the situation described, it may seems strange and that is why some games will have you take into effect the fact that the obstacle is closer to the target or the attacker but this is not the case in LnL. And what if there was 7 hexes of level 1 hill between them ? Or 13 ? Would that be that strange?
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:
I think it may confuse the situation more as the rules already state that if the height is the same (equal) LOS is blocked / degraded. This has been my point I know logically what the LOS should be and the examples match up with that but the rules text dose not.

So with my sniper.

He is on a level 1 hill (height of 1, yes?)

There is an enemy on clear ground 5 hexes away (level 0, correct?)

Between them is Kunai grass (adjacent to attacker) (level 1) on ground level (level 0) (1 + 0 for a total of level 1, yes?)

So the Sniper is on level 1 the target is one level 0 and the terrain is level 1.

So the attackers hex and the terrain are at the same height thus as per the rules " LOS traced to a lower elevation hex is blocked / degraded if it crosses blocking/degrading terrain that is at the same total height as the attackers hex elevation"

In my head the sniper should be able to fire over the terrain with a 1 hex shadow but the above rules quote dose not allow it.

Maybe if it read :

LOS traced to a lower elevation hex is blocked / degraded if it crosses blocking/degrading terrain that is at the same total height as the attackers hex elevation providing the target hex is adjacent to said blocking / degrading terrain. Other wise the attacker can fire over the blocking / degrading terrain.


Guys, the picture on Page 27 is the example you need to refer to here. LOS in that is clear to the US 1-6-4 but not to M5 and M6 b/c of one-hex shadow.

This is the situation that you are asking about for your Sniper.


Now, I've already divulged on the LnL Forum that the situation described in the text example at the top-right column on Page 26 can't occur anywhere in the existing HotP map configurations as there is no place where there is intervening terrain b/tw a pair of Level-2 hexes. However, the example is included, and the best approximation of a picture example, too, in case an expansion or battle pack includes a map where this situation may arise.

As for being at Level 1 and then there's a Light Jungle at Level-0 b/tw you and another Level-1 hex, the LOS is not degraded b/c it's as if being all on a flat surface. It doesn't matter how many hexes of Light Jungle are in between (save for weapon range).
 
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mark selleck
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I have an idea of the intention Jeff has for LOS at elevation, its just the rules text dose not seem back it up (the pictured examples do though).

Im looking at playing Nishi next so im really trying to sort out the LOS rules.

If I take the rules as written the defenders have no clear LOS from the level 1 hills it will either be degraded or blocked no matter where the target is.

From level 2 hills the heavy jungle hexes make for some large blind spots on the board as they are level 2 therefor blocking LOS to all hexes behind them.

Also if an attacker was in hex G4 (level 2 hill) on map 32 and fires on a unit in G6 (ground level 0) would the hex of G5 (level 1 hill) cast a 1 hex shadow into G6?

Lastly I assume there is a plateau rule (which the rules as written back up, but the rule also effectively makes all terrain at the same height as the attacker a plateau when trying to target a unit at a lower level, as Stephane as pointed out
 
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mark selleck
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Fenster400 wrote:

Guys, the picture on Page 27 is the example you need to refer to here. LOS in that is clear to the US 1-6-4 but not to M5 and M6 b/c of one-hex shadow.

This is the situation that you are asking about for your Sniper.


The sniper situation is different as the snipers terrain height is at the same level as the blocking terrain both level 1. In the example on page 27 the blocking / degrading terrain is at a lower level than the attacking unit (attacker is at level 2, L5 is at level 1 (though L6 is level 2 so would therefore block LOS to all hexes behind as per the rules text on the top 2nd column of page 26 (not the example text)

The problem is the rules say that if they are the same total height then LOS is blocked or degraded. So I take this to mean hill level 1 = total height of 1. Kunai grass (level 1) on ground level (level 0) = total height of 1, so they are at the same total height therefore blocks LOS.

Like I said though I understand your intentions with the rules as they are what I first thought, so I think im just going to have to not even refer to the rules on LOS at elevation as written as they say something else and go with my initial thoughts

Though I do want to clear up if a level 1 hill casts a 1 hex shadow if an attacker is on a level 2 hill. For example Attacker in G6 target hex is G4 would the level 1 hill cast a 1 hex shadow?


 
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:
Fenster400 wrote:

Guys, the picture on Page 27 is the example you need to refer to here. LOS in that is clear to the US 1-6-4 but not to M5 and M6 b/c of one-hex shadow.

This is the situation that you are asking about for your Sniper.


The sniper situation is different as the snipers terrain height is at the same level as the blocking terrain both level 1. In the example on page 27 the blocking / degrading terrain is at a lower level than the attacking unit (attacker is at level 2, L5 is at level 1 (though L6 is level 2 so would therefore block LOS to all hexes behind as per the rules text on the top 2nd column of page 26 (not the example text)

The problem is the rules say that if they are the same total height then LOS is blocked or degraded. So I take this to mean hill level 1 = total height of 1. Kunai grass (level 1) on ground level (level 0) = total height of 1, so they are at the same total height therefore blocks LOS.

Like I said though I understand your intentions with the rules as they are what I first thought, so I think im just going to have to not even refer to the rules on LOS at elevation as written as they say something else and go with my initial thoughts

Though I do want to clear up if a level 1 hill casts a 1 hex shadow if an attacker is on a level 2 hill. For example Attacker in G6 target hex is G4 would the level 1 hill cast a 1 hex shadow?



Okay, I can ameliorate this situation with the addition of the words "equal to/in" in two sections and deleting the word "furthermore" and the paragraph space. I will update for v.4.1 and get it change in the living rules for HotP.

1 - (HotP pg 26 lower left): LOS traced through a blocking/degrading-terrain hex that is located at a total elevation that is lower than or equal to both the attacker's and the target's hex elevation is not blocked/degraded.

2 - (HotP pg 26 lower right): Units in a hex higher than or equal in elevation with the total height of a blocking/degrading-terrain hex can see and fire over it into hexes at a lower elevation than the total height of said blocking/degrading terrain. Since the LOS in this situation is traced OVER the blocking/degrading terrain, it is not blocked/degraded in any way. However, Level-1 and Level-2 blocking/degrading terrain casts a one-hex shadow that blocks LOS to units in hexes directly behind them.

As for your Hill question, you are correct.

 
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mark selleck
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That clears up a few things then and makes the LOS more logical in the rules (as it was clear your intentions were).

Though just a couple of things to keep in mind when making these changes:

1: The rules text on the top right column of page 26 between the example text box and pictured example would need to be altered or completely removed as this paragraph contradicts the change in rules wording you have written above. IMO i would remove it as it is already covered in your proposed changes.

2: The pictured example on the right on page 26 would now be blocked as per your changes.

3: What was your intention with plateau effect with hills? for example an attacking unit is on C3 map 30 and wants to fire at a unit in F5 (ground level) would it be treated as:

A: Hex D4 creates a plateau effect and LOS would be blocked, or

B: Hex D4 casts a 1 hex shadow (as per the proposed changes) and the attacker would have LOS to F5

As if there is meant to be a plateau effect a separate paragraph explaining hill plateaus my need to made as the proposed rules changes don't allow for a plateau effect.

Sorry for coming back with more stuff but I really want to help make these rules tight.

 
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:
That clears up a few things then and makes the LOS more logical in the rules (as it was clear your intentions were).

1: The rules text on the top right column of page 26 between the example text box and pictured example would need to be altered or completely removed as this paragraph contradicts the change in rules wording you have written above. IMO i would remove it as it is already covered in your proposed changes.

2: The pictured example on the right on page 26 would now be blocked as per your changes.



The text and the picture are perfectly clear and valid as the Light Jungle would cast a one-hex degrading shadow. I don't see how you think a degrading-terrain hex can somehow become blocking?

 
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Jeff Lewis
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jesters_race wrote:

3: What was your intention with plateau effect with hills? for example an attacking unit is on C3 map 30 and wants to fire at a unit in F5 (ground level) would it be treated as:

A: Hex D4 creates a plateau effect and LOS would be blocked, or

B: Hex D4 casts a 1 hex shadow (as per the proposed changes) and the attacker would have LOS to F5

As if there is meant to be a plateau effect a separate paragraph explaining hill plateaus my need to made as the proposed rules changes don't allow for a plateau effect.

Sorry for coming back with more stuff but I really want to help make these rules tight.



As for your #3, the answer is B

30C3 has a clear LOS to 30F5 but is blocked to 30E4 by the one-hex shadow of the Level-1 Hill in 30D4.
 
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Jeff Lewis
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I think the problem/misunderstanding here can be found in the interpretation of 10.2 and a long-running error I've discovered on the TEC. And then make better use of prepositions.

If you are on a Clear Level-1 Hill and adjacent to a Level-0 Kunai Grass (Elevation 1), the top of the Grass is equal to the ground on the Level-1 Hill. That's why it doesn't block LOS except to the one-hex behind it--the one-hex shadow (either degrading or blocking, depending on type of terrain).

If you are in a one-hex Building, you are on the ground-level, but the top (roof) of the Building is at elevation 1 as height as obstacle.

If you are in a Multi-level Building and on the upper floor, you are at Level 2 (two levels above ground level). And here is where the long-running error is: the second floor of that Building on the TEC has long been listed as Level 2 for Height as Obstacle, but it should be Level 3 in order to account for the roof of the Building, just as in a one-hex, single-floor Building you (your unit) is on ground-floor and the height as obstacle (roof) is at Level 1.

So for terrain like Kunai Grass and Light Jungle and one-hex Building, the Height as Obstacle should read as Up to Level 1 (Level 1 is the top/ceiling).

So in theory you could move from a Level-1 Hill (floor of that hex) onto the roof/ceiling of an adjacent one-hex Building at ground level as its roof goes up to Level 1.

I think in earlier parts of this thread and in some exchanges with Ruben and Carlos on the LnL Forum, the earlier versions of the rules and TEC lend themselves to the misinterpretation (not the intent) that a Level of elevation and the height as obstacle are the same thing, and thus some may have, in effect, doubled the height of the intervening terrain in cases.

At least that's what I'm guessing. I could be wrong. But I'm trying to explain intent and how it should be played.

Anyway, like you wrote, Mark, I'm here, with you, to make these rules tight. I'm dotting the i's and crossing the t's on the v4.1 right now, so please let me know if I'm making it clear or not.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
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Stéphane Tanguay
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Fenster400 wrote:

If you are on a Clear Level-1 Hill and adjacent to a Level-0 Kunai Grass (Elevation 1), the top of the Grass is equal to the ground on the Level-1 Hill. That's why it doesn't block LOS except to the one-hex behind it--the one-hex shadow (either degrading or blocking, depending on type of terrain).


OK so that would be a change from previous rules; there is not longer a plateau effect right? So if I'm standing on a Clear level 1 hill hex, I could fire down a string of Clear level 1 hill hexes to a target located on a Clear ground level hex 1 hex away form the last hill hex in the string ?

And thank you for adressing the long-standing error regarding the multi-level building but I think it would make more sense to declare the upper floor as being at a height of 1, for a building total height of 2 with the roof. You could then move from a level 2 hill hex onto the roof of a multi-level building or move from a level 1 hill hex onto the upper floor (through a window!)
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Ruben Rigillo
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Everything 's quite clear now, but what Stephane points it's crucial!
So now intervening blocking hexes of the SAME total height of the firer hex will not block LOS anymore to lower level hexes?
This would be a major change, indeed.
 
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Fenster400 wrote:
jesters_race wrote:
That clears up a few things then and makes the LOS more logical in the rules (as it was clear your intentions were).

1: The rules text on the top right column of page 26 between the example text box and pictured example would need to be altered or completely removed as this paragraph contradicts the change in rules wording you have written above. IMO i would remove it as it is already covered in your proposed changes.

2: The pictured example on the right on page 26 would now be blocked as per your changes.



The text and the picture are perfectly clear and valid as the Light Jungle would cast a one-hex degrading shadow. I don't see how you think a degrading-terrain hex can somehow become blocking?



The reason I thought it would become blocking is due to how you re worded one of the rules.

Fenster400 wrote:

However, Level-1 and Level-2 blocking/degrading terrain casts a one-hex shadow that blocks LOS to units in hexes directly behind them.



So above this is saying blocking and degrading terrain would block line of sight to the hex directly behind them

This is also how the 1 hex shadow is expalined in the rule book when refering to terrain lower than the attacking unit
 
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Fenster400 wrote:

I think in earlier parts of this thread and in some exchanges with Ruben and Carlos on the LnL Forum, the earlier versions of the rules and TEC lend themselves to the misinterpretation (not the intent) that a Level of elevation and the height as obstacle are the same thing, and thus some may have, in effect, doubled the height of the intervening terrain in cases.

At least that's what I'm guessing. I could be wrong. But I'm trying to explain intent and how it should be played.

Anyway, like you wrote, Mark, I'm here, with you, to make these rules tight. I'm dotting the i's and crossing the t's on the v4.1 right now, so please let me know if I'm making it clear or not.

Thanks,
Jeff


Well I think I may a fallen to this as well. I have just been going off the level listed on the TEC which list all terrian typs as having a level (eg. level 1 hill is at level 1, light jungle at level 1 therefore they are of an equal height since both are level 1). I hanvnt seen anything in the rules that sparates levels and elevation, they seem as one in the same thing in the rules

Maybe this wording would show my understanding better.

A units LOS is not blocked/degarded by blocking / degrading terrain situated on a lower elevation to said unit, providing the terrain level dose not exceed that of the elevation the unit is tracing LOS from; However, Level-1 and Level-2 blocking/degrading terrain casts a one-hex shadow that blocks LOS to units in hexes directly behind them.

Is my wording above a correct interpritation of how it should work?

 
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