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Subject: Clarification around offers to buy an item rss

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Jerry Hsu
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The rule book indicates that the current player may make offers to other players that have items for sale. But the final purchase must be made only using coins and must be for a minimum of 3 coins.

I'm unclear as to what kind of offers can be made and how binding they are expected to be.

My reading of the rules is that I can't offer, for instance, 3 coins and a cider because the cider would be part of the purchase?

So the only thing that would seem to be legal would be something like "I will put a cider up for sale and promise to sell it to you for 3 coins on your turn."? Or maybe, "sell me that item for 3 coins or I'm going to buy this building / villager that I'm pretty sure you want"?

Any thoughts?
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Greg
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I guess you do any of that type of negotiating. But ultimately, actual payment can only be in coins. So you can make promises or threats, but you can only pay in coins and not in other goods, as it would be trading at that point.

 
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Kim Williams
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confucious wrote:

So the only thing that would seem to be legal would be something like "I will put a cider up for sale and promise to sell it to you for 3 coins on your turn."? Or maybe, "sell me that item for 3 coins or I'm going to buy this building / villager that I'm pretty sure you want"?

Any thoughts?


I feel like the above options are clearly against the spirit of the rules, and I wouldn't want to play that way. I really can't read the rules in any way that they would be allowed.

To me the rules seem to be clear that the negotiations are about how much someone is willing to pay, and that 'how much' is merely a number of coins at or above 3 - 3 coins, 4 coins, 9 coins etc.

I don't think the game is really intended to be a heavy negotiation game - promises or threats of future actions would bog it down and take away the adventurous feel.



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Salvador Bernadó
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I'm with Kim on this one.
I think the negotiations have to be in the order of setting a minimum price for an item or selling it to the player who bids more coins for it.
It will depend from game to game but in most cases there is no much to bid, because an item can be very valuable to a player and not much to another one.
Making promises of future trade offers to sell an item to a player instead of selling it to another, changes the mood of the game.
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Greg
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I agree that those kind of negotiations may seem out of place in this game, but the rules aren't specific that way, other than saying that the payment has to be in coins. So certain groups of people may want to play this way to spice it up some.

That said, when I teach the game tonight, I'm going to teach it in a manner that only allows you to negotiate the price in coins, not in future considerations or threats to take something. I personally think that this is meant as a lighter type game with a fun theme.
 
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Jerry Hsu
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I agree that it seems unnecessarily complicated to allow for totally free form negotiation. But the rule as written also seems unnecessarily complex if the intention is simply "you may offer any number of coins and only coins with a minimum cost of 3".

I figure for teaching the game at least I'll go with that just to keep it simpler and faster.
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Big Head Zach
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The feeling I got from the trade mechanism is that it's meant mainly for selling goods/items that are of low value to you, but would be more useful to someone else...and that's the extent of its use.

* You're willing to sell someone a good they need to increase their advancement track (or supplement existing filled slots on it), or cider/potions to facilitate refreshing their villagers when lacking bedspace, in return for what will inevitably be funds for desired buildings (or to buy a good from someone else that you need).

The subtle strategy over how you fill your advancement slots (early to get a solid income boost, or late to have the higher value slots go to more abundant goods types) is fascinating and I look forward to exploring it.
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Edwin Karat
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entwife wrote:
confucious wrote:

So the only thing that would seem to be legal would be something like "I will put a cider up for sale and promise to sell it to you for 3 coins on your turn."? Or maybe, "sell me that item for 3 coins or I'm going to buy this building / villager that I'm pretty sure you want"?

Any thoughts?


I feel like the above options are clearly against the spirit of the rules, and I wouldn't want to play that way. I really can't read the rules in any way that they would be allowed.

To me the rules seem to be clear that the negotiations are about how much someone is willing to pay, and that 'how much' is merely a number of coins at or above 3 - 3 coins, 4 coins, 9 coins etc.

I don't think the game is really intended to be a heavy negotiation game - promises or threats of future actions would bog it down and take away the adventurous feel.



I think it's entirely up to the group, but it isn't against the rules, per se. So, do it if you want to, but don't do it if you don't want to.
 
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Kim Williams
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karat wrote:

I think it's entirely up to the group, but it isn't against the rules, per se. So, do it if you want to, but don't do it if you don't want to.


Still no clarification from Ryan, and while I absolutely think anyone can choose to play a game any way that makes it fun for them, I am interested by what Ryan intended to be the rule.

So here's all the rules on this issue that I can see:

Buy From a Player

A player may purchase a good, cider, or potion from
another player that has been placed for sale in the
top left corner of the seller’s player board. The player
may bargain, make offers, etc, but may only pay in
coins, and he must pay at least 3 coins. The seller may
refuse the offer for any reason. If the seller agrees to
sell the good, potion, or cider, the player pays him the
agreed upon amount of coins and takes the good.

Put Something for Sale

A player may place one of his goods, a cider, or a
potion for sale by placing it in the slot at the top
left corner of his player board. Other players may
attempt to purchase it on their turns.
A player may remove the good that is for sale or replace it with something else only on his turn.

A player may only have one good for sake at a time.


I assume the part that makes people thing you can bring more than just money into the deal is the phrase "The player may bargain, make offers, etc,..."

However it's immediately followed by "but may only pay in coins, and he must pay at least 3 coins" which seemed to make clear to me that the bargaining and offering was intended to refer to monetary negotiations (so our interpretation was that it's not that you can only say "I'm willing to pay 4 coins." Instead you can say "I'll pay 4" The other person says "I'll accept 6" you say "how about we meet in the middle with 5" etc.)

If the intention was that you could include promises of future actions (like the suggested "if you sell me this now, I'll sell you something else later") then why emphasize "only pay in coins"? Surely any promises/threats of future action would count as 'payment in kind' and are clearly not payment in coins.

The sentence "If the seller agrees to sell the good, potion, or cider, the player pays him the agreed upon amount of coins and takes the good." makes it seem to me like the only thing envisaged is a very straight forward money for goods exchange. There's no mention that you "Take the good, and then later carry out any agreed actions"

I feel the evidence in favour of a more broad exchange (use of the words "make bargain, make offers etc") seems to be outweighed by the rest of the paragraphs. However given the re-roll rules weren't tightly covered by the rulebook I really shouldn't be surprised whichever way this one ended up going!


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