GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
7,890 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
21 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
57 
 Thumb up
 Hide
90 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

Terra Mystica: Fire & Ice» Forums » Rules

Subject: OFFICIAL CHANGE OF RULES! rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: OFFICIAL [+] FAQ [+] [View All]
Helge Ostertag
Germany
Hofheim
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
These are the official rules updates for Riverwalkers and Shapeshifters:

Riverwalkers:
Riverwalkers have to pay 1 coin when they unlock a new terrain on their wheel (starting terrain is free), 2 coins if it is another player's home terrain.

explanations: (edited)
- priest gained in Phase I (i.e. as income from temple, sanctuary or bonus tile): the coins have to be either existing coins (saved from previous round) or coins gained as income parallel to the priest; no burning/conversion allowed to get the coins (the player would need to do such burning/conversion before he/she passed in the previous Phase II)
- priest gained in Phase II (i.e. from power action aka ACT2, town tile or direct 5pw-to-priest conversion): the coins can also come from conversion of power/workers/priests
- priest gained in Phase III (i.e. from cult bonus): the coins have to be existing coins (saved from Phase II); no burning/conversion allowed (the player would need to do such burning/conversion before passing in Phase II)


Shapeshifters:
The cost of the Shapeshifter Stronghold power is increased to 5 power / 5 power tokens, and using the power (= shift your current hometerrain into another hometerrain) no longer generates any victory points. They also have to pay one VP for every power token they receive using their faction special ability. So when another player takes power during their build action, they pay 1 VP and get a new power token into bowl III. If the Shapeshifters don't want to pay 1VP, they get nothing (no power gain, which is different from when other players refuse to take power - then Shapeshifters themselves would get one power).
50 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mychal
United States
Tempe
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
These rules updates are so tedious and the fact that they're not reflected on my game components is quite aggravating. Was this game rushed out? I'd much rather the extra time was taken to playtest and refine a balanced game, instead of so many post-release incremental changes. These are exactly the sort of tweaks you'd expect to happen during playtesting, but the fact that they're happening after release just seems amateurish.
62 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Zigmond
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've already asked this in the other thread, before seeing this one - but why the sudden "final version" which hasn't been tested online? And why nerf shapeshifters further beyond the already-mediocre version 4?

I don't endorse the previous poster's criticism, though Yes, in an ideal world, these two factions would have not been released in their OP forms, but the designers at least recognised this quickly, and allowed the community to test new versions. And let's not forget that at least 16 of the 20 factions are very well balanced in their original forms.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Markus Wegener
Germany
flag msg tools
Thx for the official update. So will there be stickers released for that changes and if so, when wil they be released?
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Florian Trabert
Germany
Düsseldorf (34 km south of Essen)
NRW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Skylar114 wrote:
These rules updates are so tedious and the fact that they're not reflected on my game components is quite aggravating. Was this game rushed out? I'd much rather the extra time was taken to playtest and refine a balanced game, instead of so many post-release incremental changes. These are exactly the sort of tweaks you'd expect to happen during playtesting, but the fact that they're happening after release just seems amateurish.


Terra Mystica is not a LCG like Netrunner, where you can rebalance the factions with every Data Pack. So things are more complicated and not all issues might appear already during playtesting. I welcome the change of rules proposed by the designers.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't disagree with anything you've [Mychal] said, but per your profile you've been a BGG member as long as I have. You should be used to this by now. The Stone Age expansion seems like it plays really well the first few times you play with it, but once you dig deep into it you start to realize that the new trading mechanism is overpowered. Village Inn has a similar problem in that players who don't go for tavern cards will lose to those who do. I've not looked into this personally, but I've read that nobles in the Puerto Rico expansion tend to be a bit game breaking. Fire & Ice is really no different. About a year ago I hit what I called "expansion burnout" because I was tired of buying expansions that felt like they were cash grabs and not actually tested to see how well they integrate. (In fact, I think Fire and Ice was the straw on that particular camel's back.) Honestly, I hate make a such a comment in this forum because I think Jens & Helge really do care about their game. The fact that they at least put the effort into developing errata makes them better than the people who developed the expansions mentioned above. But that doesn't detract my disappointment. In any case, my point is that TM isn't the first really good game to have a problem with expansion integration, and it certainly won't be the last.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This would have been nice to know when I played (and lost) against the Shapeshifters last night. Oh, well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mychal
United States
Tempe
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
davypi wrote:
I don't disagree with anything you've [Mychal] said, but per your profile you've been a BGG member as long as I have. You should be used to this by now. The Stone Age expansion seems like it plays really well the first few times you play with it, but once you dig deep into it you start to realize that the new trading mechanism is overpowered. Village Inn has a similar problem in that players who don't go for tavern cards will lose to those who do. I've not looked into this personally, but I've read that nobles in the Puerto Rico expansion tend to be a bit game breaking. Fire & Ice is really no different. About a year ago I hit what I called "expansion burnout" because I was tired of buying expansions that felt like they were cash grabs and not actually tested to see how well they integrate. (In fact, I think Fire and Ice was the straw on that particular camel's back.) Honestly, I hate make a such a comment in this forum because I think Jens & Helge really do care about their game. The fact that they at least put the effort into developing errata makes them better than the people who developed the expansions mentioned above. But that doesn't detract my disappointment. In any case, my point is that TM isn't the first really good game to have a problem with expansion integration, and it certainly won't be the last.


Well I haven't played any of the other games you listed, but it sounds like they too need to get their shit together and do more thorough playtesting. The only other game I've played that I can think of with this issue is Smallworld, which sometimes releases overpowered or underpowered races, but at least that game has a built-in self-balancing mechanic to deal with it.

Edit: I realize Terra Mystica has a balancing mechanism with the optional bidding for factions, but it's technically a variant.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mychal
United States
Tempe
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
flott wrote:
Terra Mystica is not a LCG like Netrunner, where you can rebalance the factions with every Data Pack.


They can't rebalance the factions with every data pack. The design cycle of Netrunner is over a year long, so they have to be just as careful about releasing a balanced game, since any severe unbalance with a faction or a particular would take over a year to intentionally "fix" with a new release.

flott wrote:
So things are more complicated and not all issues might appear already during playtesting.


Then do more thorough playtesting, and don't release an unpolished product.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You may consider it unpolished, but given the ranking on BGG, you seem to be outnumbered.
22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Shanowitz
United States
Bristol
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DocCool wrote:
You may consider it unpolished, but given the ranking on BGG, you seem to be outnumbered.

Expansions aren't ranked. If you mean the rating, expansions almost always tend to be rated highly.

It does seem like additional playtesting was needed considering how quickly these imbalances were discovered, but I'm glad they owned up to it early on and spent time coming up with a (hopefully) balanced fix.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Michaud
United States
Longwood
Florida
flag msg tools
On-Line Want List Generator - Hopefully Making Math Trades a Little Bit Easier
badge
Captain Kirk, Captain Picard, Captain Sisko, Captain Janeway, Captain Archer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thunkd wrote:
This would have been nice to know when I played (and lost) against the Shapeshifters last night. Oh, well.

I hope at least you knew they've been playtesting (on snellman) rule changes for the SS for months.... at least 3 versions...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JeffyJeff wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
This would have been nice to know when I played (and lost) against the Shapeshifters last night. Oh, well.

I hope at least you knew they've been playtesting (on snellman) rule changes for the SS for months.... at least 3 versions...
Yes. But I hadn't heard what the consensus on the latest version was yet.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kolby Reddish
United States
Nampa
Idaho
flag msg tools
designer
the Yellow Sign?
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the changes, maybe we could get someone to mock up a printable sticker for the player boards to explain the changes.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Seifert
United States
Little Canada
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DocCool wrote:
You may consider it unpolished, but given the ranking on BGG, you seem to be outnumbered.


But it is objectively unpolished. Even fans of the game admit that the factions are in no way balanced, and the designers themselves agree hence the errata.

Being imbalanced doesn't necessarily detract from how fun the game is as these issues don't appear in casual play.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marian H
Germany
flag msg tools
I agree with Mychal. Why nerfing shapeshifters even beyond the mediocre V.4? What were the thoughts behind that change? In fact, V.2 and 3 I preferred much more since they solve the issue in a more elegant way due to no need of changing the actual board.

Though I'm happy to see developers still taking care after the release of the game and I'm thankful for that! We still like to play it!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Japan
Osaka-shi
Osaka-fu
flag msg tools
mbmb
The updated Shapeshifters Stronghold still cannot change the current Home terrain into another Faction's one?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant
United States
Cuyahoga Falls
Ohio
flag msg tools
One of the best gaming weekends in Ohio since 2010. Search facebook for "BOGA Weekend Retreat" for more info!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bokuteki wrote:
The updated Shapeshifters Stronghold still cannot change the current Home terrain into another Faction's one?

Right.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Glad this is being addressed, but are the timing rules for Riverwalkers really necessary? It seems unnecessarily fiddly. Just let them spend Power to get the coins, I doubt it will unbalance them too heavily. Better than adding all of these fiddly rules just to account for some timing. Especially the rules concerning them needing to convert before passing.

Oh, you forgot to do it before passing! Now you can't unlock the terrain! GOTCHA!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Georg D.
Germany
Höxter
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shampoo4you wrote:

Glad this is being addressed, but are the timing rules for Riverwalkers really necessary?

No as they only emphasize what is already part of the rules: You may only convert power during your turn.

Quote:
It seems unnecessarily fiddly.

If you read carefully what they say there is nothing fiddly with it.

Quote:
Just let them spend Power to get the coins, I doubt it will unbalance them too heavily.

Why should you allow that. Then every other race should get the right to convert power to coins whenever they want too. Better stick with one set of rules than change them arbitrary.

Quote:
Better than adding all of these fiddly rules just to account for some timing. Especially the rules concerning them needing to convert before passing.

Again - that are no added rules but more something like a FAQ to the existing rules.

Quote:
Oh, you forgot to do it before passing! Now you can't unlock the terrain! GOTCHA!

It is the same for all other races: Oh you forgoot to convert your power before passing! Now you can't get all your power income but will lose some of it.
(Of course you can play it as you want and for a game under friends I recommend a more loose handling of the timing. But as there are tournaments with this game (at least online) there have to be clear rules. And the simplest rule for this is: conversions only during your turn.)
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fluxx wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

Glad this is being addressed, but are the timing rules for Riverwalkers really necessary?

No as they only emphasize what is already part of the rules: You may only convert power during your turn.

Quote:
It seems unnecessarily fiddly.

If you read carefully what they say there is nothing fiddly with it.

Quote:
Just let them spend Power to get the coins, I doubt it will unbalance them too heavily.

Why should you allow that. Then every other race should get the right to convert power to coins whenever they want too. Better stick with one set of rules than change them arbitrary.

Quote:
Better than adding all of these fiddly rules just to account for some timing. Especially the rules concerning them needing to convert before passing.

Again - that are no added rules but more something like a FAQ to the existing rules.

Quote:
Oh, you forgot to do it before passing! Now you can't unlock the terrain! GOTCHA!

It is the same for all other races: Oh you forgoot to convert your power before passing! Now you can't get all your power income but will lose some of it.
(Of course you can play it as you want and for a game under friends I recommend a more loose handling of the timing. But as there are tournaments with this game (at least online) there have to be clear rules. And the simplest rule for this is: conversions only during your turn.)


For no other race is this as crucial.

For other races it may end up in a bit of wasted power if they forget. For the Riverwalkers, it could mean their whole game if they forget to grab a coin before passing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Earl
United States
Portage
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with Mychal.

You can't expect everyone who buys an expansion to constantly monitor the BGG forums for rules updates. I only noticed it because it was on the front page.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Bruns
United States
Naperville
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I detest these types of changes. For tournament rules, demand that they play with the bidding rules, which should be able to balance anything. Then leave the rules as published!
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Georg D.
Germany
Höxter
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shampoo4you wrote:

For no other race is this as crucial.

For other races it may end up in a bit of wasted power if they forget. For the Riverwalkers, it could mean their whole game if they forget to grab a coin before passing.


I disagree! For each race s.th. like that can be crucial and ruin the whole game. For riverwalkers it can be more obvious and you will have such situations more regularly but I had situations where I wasted this 1 or 2 power and costed me the whole game. This could result in having 1 coin less the next turn which means you can't build one building so don't finish your town don't get the 5 points roundbonus and don't get the boni from the towntile which can snowball through the whole game...

For a casual game at home I would always allow someone to convert power after passing (for all races!!!) - but for tournaments I don't see any nescessarity for it. If you are unconcentrated when you move you have to live with the results - regardless which race you play.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fluxx wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

For no other race is this as crucial.

For other races it may end up in a bit of wasted power if they forget. For the Riverwalkers, it could mean their whole game if they forget to grab a coin before passing.


I disagree! For each race s.th. like that can be crucial and ruin the whole game. For riverwalkers it can be more obvious and you will have such situations more regularly but I had situations where I wasted this 1 or 2 power and costed me the whole game. This could result in having 1 coin less the next turn which means you can't build one building so don't finish your town don't get the 5 points roundbonus and don't get the boni from the towntile which can snowball through the whole game...

For a casual game at home I would always allow someone to convert power after passing (for all races!!!) - but for tournaments I don't see any nescessarity for it. If you are unconcentrated when you move you have to live with the results - regardless which race you play.


For each race it's potentially important. For Riverwalkers it *IS* essential that they unlock terrain.

And yes, at home games we allow power conversions any time, to prevent losing from making a simple mistake (and also to reduce AP, otherwise people spend more time making sure they didn't forget anything).

In tournaments of course you must enforce the rules as written, but it's kind of an extraneous rule in general I think (as evidenced by all the fiddliness you need to make Riverwalkers work with it).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.