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Subject: Are Non-Wargamers Becoming More Squishy? rss

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Tom Swider
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It's not just you. Eurowimp gamers generally don't want to break somebody's eggs and that a playtime of greater than 60 minutes is a big commitment. More interest in form rather than function, though form should never ruin function.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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tswider wrote:
Eurowimp gamers generally don't want to break somebody's eggs and that a playtime of greater than 60 minutes is a big commitment.

Are you seriously arguing that Fantasy Flight's target audience is "eurowimp" gamers?
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Michael Carter
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There has been a large influx of gamers into the hobby and a large chunk of them are entering euros through shows like Tabletop and blogs like SU&SD. With that, we have seen a growth of micro games and light euros that are playable in 60 minutes. Like any time a hobby grows, the percentage of "hardcore" or "heavy" gamers diminishes. Games like TI3 are becoming less common among Ameritrash and euro games.
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Michael Carter
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sdiberar wrote:
tswider wrote:
Eurowimp gamers generally don't want to break somebody's eggs and that a playtime of greater than 60 minutes is a big commitment.

Are you seriously arguing that Fantasy Flight's target audience is "eurowimp" gamers?


They may not be targeting "eurowimps", but they have had a habit of streamlining, shortening, and simplifying their games.
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Tom Swider
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sdiberar wrote:
tswider wrote:
Eurowimp gamers generally don't want to break somebody's eggs and that a playtime of greater than 60 minutes is a big commitment.

Are you seriously arguing that Fantasy Flight's target audience is "eurowimp" gamers?


Yes, that's my story and I'm sticking with it. I also admit I will on occasion exaggerate for effect; it's what sells newspapers.

Can't say that I'm pleased with any of their attempts to streamline games. Warrior Knights and Fury of Dracula come to mind. Glad I have the GW originals of both.

Just took a look at their catalog and do think that most light family boardgame players will play FF games, moreso than wargamers are likely to play FF games.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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tswider wrote:
Just took a look at their catalog and do think that most light family boardgame players will play FF games, moreso than wargamers are likely to play FF games.


Pretty much all the people I know who play FF games are wargamers. None of the eurogamers I know play them.

Good luck gettin' that dog to hunt.
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I think the vibe of this post represents a very exclusive side to wargaming.

Most people I know play boardgames as the occasional past time at a party/get-together. These people simply aren't looking for a challenging system or grandiose adventure in their boardgaming experience. And that's okay. Boardgames can scratch different itches for different people.

I will say that when I show some of my friends games more complicated than risk (wargames or otherwise), they always have a look of surprise on their faces. It doesn't occur to them that a boardgames can BE more than a 30 minute time waster. That a board game can be studied, or that meaningful stories can be told through the playing of one. And I used to be in the same boat. But, complicated boardgames are not for everyone. And everyone has their own threshold for what level of detail/complication they want in a boardgame.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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mlcarter815 wrote:
There has been a large influx of gamers into the hobby and a large chunk of them are entering euros through shows like Tabletop and blogs like SU&SD. With that, we have seen a growth of micro games and light euros that are playable in 60 minutes. Like any time a hobby grows, the percentage of "hardcore" or "heavy" gamers diminishes. Games like TI3 are becoming less common among Ameritrash and euro games.

TI3 was never "among euro games". Forbidden Stars is a 3+ hour game. What are you talking about?

You are conflating two very different wings of the hobby.
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mlcarter815 wrote:
There has been a large influx of gamers into the hobby and a large chunk of them are entering euros through shows like Tabletop and blogs like SU&SD. With that, we have seen a growth of micro games and light euros that are playable in 60 minutes. Like any time a hobby grows, the percentage of "hardcore" or "heavy" gamers diminishes. Games like TI3 are becoming less common among Ameritrash and euro games.


    Yep, and six months later they post their "Recommend a Wargame For Me" thread. Under two hours, no more than eight pages of rules, 2 to 6 players, mounted map.

             S.

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Lance McMillan
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tswider wrote:
Eurowimp gamers generally don't want to break somebody's eggs and that a playtime of greater than 60 minutes is a big commitment.


This comes across as the gaming equivalent of Monty Python's Yorkshireman Sketch.

"Back when I was a lad, we played games with rule books that were dozens of pages thick."

"Dozens? Ha, we didn't play anything where the rules weren't at least a hundred pages!"

"Yes, and there were none of these namby-pamby illustrations. Everything had to be explained purely with text."

"That's right, and none of these 'easy to read' large fonts! Nine point, maximum."

"Better yet, typed on a manual typewriter, with a worn-out ribbon, so you had to really squint to read it."

"And you had to take notes when you read the rules to make sure you had it all down in a format that was useable. And reading the rules? Took you at least a week, probably two."

"That's right. And playing the game took weeks, if not months, to complete."

"That's assuming you ever actually played it. Never punched most of my games out, would've lowered their value for collectors."

"I always bought two copies. One to play, and one to save to re-sell later."

"But you never did, re-sell them that is."

"No, that would have been wrong."

"And you try explaining this to these squishy young gamers today and they just don't understand."

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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Sagrilarus wrote:
Yep, and six months later they post their "Recommend a Wargame For Me" thread. Under two hours, no more than eight pages of rules, 2 to 6 players, mounted map.

Yeah, screw them and their desire to join you in your recreational pastime! How dare they!
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Thom0909
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To Eurogamers, "heavy" isn't about rules complexity, it's about depth. They rate Go and Chess as heavy. I have no idea how Forbidden Stars plays, but maybe it does have a lot of elements.
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Michael Carter
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sdiberar wrote:
tswider wrote:
Just took a look at their catalog and do think that most light family boardgame players will play FF games, moreso than wargamers are likely to play FF games.


Pretty much all the people I know who play FF games are wargamers. None of the eurogamers I know play them.

Good luck gettin' that dog to hunt.


If we are going to go off of anecdotes, I know plenty of eurogamers who play FFG games.
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Michael Carter
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sdiberar wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
There has been a large influx of gamers into the hobby and a large chunk of them are entering euros through shows like Tabletop and blogs like SU&SD. With that, we have seen a growth of micro games and light euros that are playable in 60 minutes. Like any time a hobby grows, the percentage of "hardcore" or "heavy" gamers diminishes. Games like TI3 are becoming less common among Ameritrash and euro games.

TI3 was never "among euro games". Forbidden Stars is a 3+ hour game. What are talking about?

You are conflating two very different wings of the hobby.


I don’t think so. I don’t think the euro/AT divide is as wide as in the past.
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Mike Hoyt

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sdiberar wrote:

Are you seriously arguing that Fantasy Flight's target audience is "eurowimp" gamers?


Well, they certainly aren't wargamers
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Andreas Krüger
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Is this a challenge or something?

OK, let me try.

Have you noticed how lazy war game designers are? Instead of properly developing their game, they just pile up rules until they have everything covered. Then they send their prototype PDF with self made "graphics" to the printer. Testing? Done by the players.

Although, there is some hope. These Total War guys seem to take their job seriously.
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Wayne Melnick
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:

Have you noticed how lazy war game designers are? Instead of properly developing their game, they just pile up rules until they have everything covered. Then they send their prototype PDF with self made "graphics" to the printer. Testing? Done by the players.


On no! Did I stumble into another Richard Berg thread?
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Charles Vasey
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sdiberar wrote:
Sagrilarus wrote:
Yep, and six months later they post their "Recommend a Wargame For Me" thread. Under two hours, no more than eight pages of rules, 2 to 6 players, mounted map.

Yeah, screw them and their desire to join you in your recreational pastime! How dare they!


Give 'em Hell, Scott! I'll hold your coat for you.
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Jason Cawley
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Its not you. Also, if we use Eurogamers to grease the treads of our tanks, squishy is fine...
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Caleb
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Sigh. I wonder if some old grognards will ever understand that the mental energy required to play a game well has very little correlation to the length of its rule book, and hardly more correlation to the time it takes to play the game. Some of the most mentally exhausting and challenging sessions I've had were playing Amazons, a game whose rules fit on one half of one side of one page.
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cannoneer wrote:
Sigh. I wonder if some old grognards will ever understand that the mental energy required to play a game well has very little correlation to the length of its rule book, and hardly more correlation to the time it takes to play the game. Some of the most mentally exhausting and challenging sessions I've had were playing Amazons, a game whose rules fit on one half of one side of one page.


I agree, but as often as not the issue isn't the mental energy of playing, but the actual length of the rules. I have a devil of a time getting players to sit through rule explanations that run longer than two minutes. They perceive the time learning a game as a waste of time.

This isn't a "euro" thing, it's endemic to the hobby. The result is Machi Koro each week. It took me two years to get Imperial on the table.

S.
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Martin Larouche
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cannoneer wrote:
Sigh. I wonder if some old grognards will ever understand that the mental energy required to play a game well has very little correlation to the length of its rule book, and hardly more correlation to the time it takes to play the game. Some of the most mentally exhausting and challenging sessions I've had were playing Amazons, a game whose rules fit on one half of one side of one page.


Agreed.

I've played lots of games in every genre. Lots of traditional wargames, euros and ameritrash...

After a while, you figure out that the number of pages in the rulebook has nothing to do with the depth of play. The complexity of the ruleset just gives the illusion of the depth of the gameplay.

Streamlining a game also doesn't automatically means less strategy.
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Matthew Barber
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If you are testing via finger poke to the gut I'd say wargamers are usually a fairly squishy cohort.
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Wow, some sweeping generalizations being made in this thread. I am a newer board gamer, and have been refining my taste as I've been exposed to more games. While I personally don't care for war games because the theme does not appeal to me, I do prefer heavy strategy, brain-burner games. I consider myself a euro gamer because in that genre I can find games that hurt my brain with themes that are appealing to me. However, there are times when I just don't feel up to having my brain taxed or I'm playing with others who don't, and I'll play less challenging games just for the enjoyment of doing something fun. I don't consider that being "squishy".

If the war game theme did appeal to me, I would feel intimidated and unwelcome into the community based on the some of the attitudes portrayed in this thread. Everyone has the right to express their opinions and I mean this kindly, but you may want to reread some of the posts from an outsider's point of view if you care about welcoming new players into your genre.
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Hethalos wrote:
I glanced through a couple of playthroughs and reviews of Forbidden Stars and quite a few people consider it a "heavy game" with "lots of different elements".

Seriously; the rule set is mostly straightforward unlike more complex wargames. It's like basic arithmetic compared to calculus on steroids.

Is it just me, or are some gamers too namby-pamby?

What? Uhhhh...I mean this is the best possible way: play more games.
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