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Pax Pamir» Forums » Rules

Subject: Read the rules twice and in need of answers and clarifications rss

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Kyrill Melai
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So I have read the rules twice and have yet to play my first game. From what I have read I think I will enjoy this game. However, I need some answers and clarifications.

1. Actions
A2 says you take at least two actions.
D1 says you take up to two actions.
E1 says you normally perform two actions.
a. Are you required to take a minimum number of actions?
b. Are you required to spend all your "action points"?

2. Tiebreaker.
Ok, I know the answer to this one, but I thought the omission in the rules is funny. To break ties after being tied in military stars, A3 says to compare rupees. I think I can safely assume the player with the most rupees wins. However, A3 doesn't specify who wins after vigorously comparing two piles of rupees.

3. Purchasing a topple
The first bullet in E3 is very clear. You cannot purchase a card if at or over your hand size limit.
So can you buy a topple if at or over your hand size limit?

4. Paying costs
The last bullet of E3 says to place rupees in the other row if a spot is vacant. It refers to the situation where a vacant spot exists due to purchasing a card previously. However, there are other situation in which rupees are placed in the market when there are vacant spots.
When placing rupees for paying other costs than purchasing a card, do you simple ignore vacant slots when determining the rightmost cards?

5. Placing units
The bullet for Placing Units in E4 and the glossary section on Cube and Cylinder management are not in agreement.
E4 allows taking units from any other Location where the glossary section allows the units to be taken from any position. I.e. E4 is very restrictive where the units come from and the glossary section has no restrictions at all.
Which version is correct?

6. Counter-Espionage
The rules suggests that all spies removed must come from a single card.
Is this correct?

7. Coup
To allow for a coup to occur, do you have to bribe the single highest Political card or is tied highest sufficient?

8. Influence
When adding up influence:
1. YOUR Loyalty card, Prizes and Gifts give you influence.
2. Patriots of the supreme empire in YOUR tableau give you influence.
3. And EVERY spy on a colored band matching the supreme empire gives you influence.
I find it hard to believe that loyalty cards, prizes and gifts provide influence to you regards of their color. I also find it hard to believe that spies of any player provide you with influence as long as they are on a colored band of the Supreme Empire. But that is what is says in H3.
Does this need to be rectified?
 
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Martin G
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NoDDs wrote:
I find it hard to believe that loyalty cards, prizes and gifts provide influence to you regards of their color.


They don't. It's impossible for you to have loyalty cards, prizes and gifts of more than one colour, since whenever you change loyalty, you must discard all cards from your tableau of your previous loyalty and any gifts you've made.
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Martin G
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NoDDs wrote:
However, A3 doesn't specify who wins after vigorously comparing two piles of rupees.


Yes it does:

"If there is a further tie, neither player is superior."
 
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Cole Wehrle
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NoDDs wrote:
So I have read the rules twice and have yet to play my first game.


Thanks for posting this list. I'll see if I can get through all of your concerns in one go.

Quote:

1. Actions
A2 says you take at least two actions.
D1 says you take up to two actions.
E1 says you normally perform two actions.
a. Are you required to take a minimum number of actions?
b. Are you required to spend all your "action points"?


Players are compelled to take two actions per turn. Ruel D1 should be adjusted to read "Take two actions--Standard and/or Special."

Quote:

2. Tiebreaker.
Ok, I know the answer to this one, but I thought the omission in the rules is funny. To break ties after being tied in military stars, A3 says to compare rupees. I think I can safely assume the player with the most rupees wins. However, A3 doesn't specify who wins after vigorously comparing two piles of rupees.


The comparison of rupees goes in the favor of the player with more rupees. Furthermore, Martin is spot on further ties. A3 reads, "If there is a further tie, neither player is superior."

Quote:

3. Purchasing a topple
The first bullet in E3 is very clear. You cannot purchase a card if at or over your hand size limit.
So can you buy a topple if at or over your hand size limit?


Topples are never added to your hand, therefore you do not need room in your hand to purchase one. I will add a sentence to clarify this.

Quote:

4. Paying costs
The last bullet of E3 says to place rupees in the other row if a spot is vacant. It refers to the situation where a vacant spot exists due to purchasing a card previously. However, there are other situation in which rupees are placed in the market when there are vacant spots.
When placing rupees for paying other costs than purchasing a card, do you simple ignore vacant slots when determining the rightmost cards?


Ah good catch. All payment of Market cards should follow the procedure outlined in E3.

Quote:

5. Placing units
The bullet for Placing Units in E4 and the glossary section on Cube and Cylinder management are not in agreement.
E4 allows taking units from any other Location where the glossary section allows the units to be taken from any position. I.e. E4 is very restrictive where the units come from and the glossary section has no restrictions at all.
Which version is correct?


They are in agreement. The one place where I could see a little confusion would be spies, since they are not technically on locations. I will adjust E4 "Place Units" to read "anywhere."

Quote:

6. Counter-Espionage
The rules suggests that all spies removed must come from a single card.
Is this correct?


No. You can remove spies on any card where you have at least one spy. I will replace "a" with "any".

Quote:

7. Coup
To allow for a coup to occur, do you have to bribe the single highest Political card or is tied highest sufficient?


If two cards are tied, neither is highest.

Quote:

8. Influence
When adding up influence:
1. YOUR Loyalty card, Prizes and Gifts give you influence.
2. Patriots of the supreme empire in YOUR tableau give you influence.
3. And EVERY spy on a colored band matching the supreme empire gives you influence.
I find it hard to believe that loyalty cards, prizes and gifts provide influence to you regards of their color. I also find it hard to believe that spies of any player provide you with influence as long as they are on a colored band of the Supreme Empire. But that is what is says in H3.
Does this need to be rectified?


They don't. Martin is spot on here. The only instance where you can have influence in empires that you are not loyal to is when you have spies on other player tableau's (on patriots and prizes). These spies are operating as informants.
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Rich James
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Quote:
7. Coup
To allow for a coup to occur, do you have to bribe the single highest Political card or is tied highest sufficient?

If two cards are tied, neither is highest.

So a defense against a coup would be to have at least two cards as your highest ranked cards?
 
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arjisme wrote:
Cole Wehrle wrote:
Quote:
7. Coup
To allow for a coup to occur, do you have to bribe the single highest Political card or is tied highest sufficient?

If two cards are tied, neither is highest.

So a defense against a coup would be to have at least two cards as your highest ranked cards?


Yup. But, be warned, there are very few rank 3 political cards.
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Kyrill Melai
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Quote:
1. Actions
A2 says you take at least two actions.
D1 says you take up to two actions.
E1 says you normally perform two actions.
a. Are you required to take a minimum number of actions?
b. Are you required to spend all your "action points"?


Cole Wehrle wrote:
Players are compelled to take two actions per turn. Rule D1 should be adjusted to read "Take two actions--Standard and/or Special."


E specifies that Special actions associated with the current regime will not count against your two actions.

Does this also apply to the minimum number of actions you are required to take? I.e. do I have to perform two actions that are not associated with the current regime?
 
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Kyrill Melai
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Quote:
2. Tiebreaker.
Ok, I know the answer to this one, but I thought the omission in the rules is funny. To break ties after being tied in military stars, A3 says to compare rupees. I think I can safely assume the player with the most rupees wins. However, A3 doesn't specify who wins after vigorously comparing two piles of rupees.


Cole Wehrle wrote:
The comparison of rupees goes in the favor of the player with more rupees. Furthermore, Martin is spot on further ties. A3 reads, "If there is a further tie, neither player is superior."


I would have guessed that. But the rules do not specify this so it might as well have been the player with the least rupees.
 
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Kyrill Melai
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Quote:

4. Paying costs
The last bullet of E3 says to place rupees in the other row if a spot is vacant. It refers to the situation where a vacant spot exists due to purchasing a card previously. However, there are other situation in which rupees are placed in the market when there are vacant spots.
When placing rupees for paying other costs than purchasing a card, do you simple ignore vacant slots when determining the rightmost cards?


Cole Wehrle wrote:
Ah good catch. All payment of Market cards should follow the procedure outlined in E3.


I would not have guessed that. Paying cost for Bribe and Gifts says there is a maximum of one rupee per card. Following E3 will violate this.

Also, what happens in the unlikely event both spots in the same column are vacant?
 
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Kyrill Melai
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Quote:
8. Influence
When adding up influence:
1. YOUR Loyalty card, Prizes and Gifts give you influence.
2. Patriots of the supreme empire in YOUR tableau give you influence.
3. And EVERY spy on a colored band matching the supreme empire gives you influence.
I find it hard to believe that loyalty cards, prizes and gifts provide influence to you regards of their color. I also find it hard to believe that spies of any player provide you with influence as long as they are on a colored band of the Supreme Empire. But that is what is says in H3.
Does this need to be rectified?


Cole Wehrle wrote:
They don't. Martin is spot on here. The only instance where you can have influence in empires that you are not loyal to is when you have spies on other player tableau's (on patriots and prizes). These spies are operating as informants.


You are missing my point. There are three sources for influence, but the wording for calculating influence for these sources is inconsistent on two parts.

A: Patriots and the color of the band on which spies sit, must match that of the empire for which you are calculating influence. This requirement to match the empire is missing from Loyalty Card/Prizes and Gifts. Either the inconsistency is deliberate or incorrect. In case of the former, I will earn Influence for the British Empire for my Russian Loyalty card.

B: Influence is earned for Your Loyalty card/Prizes/Gifts and patriots in YOUR tableau. This requirement that the source of influence has to be yours is missing from spies. Either this inconsistency is deliberate or incorrect. In case of the former, I will earn Influence for spies belonging to other players. (This consequently means all players earn the same amount of influence for spies.)

I guess both inconsistency are incorrect and not deliberate.
 
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Martin G
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You have some good points here, but it's a shame you couldn't winnow them out a bit from the industrial-grade nitpicking.
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Cole Wehrle
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NoDDs wrote:


E specifies that Special actions associated with the current regime will not count against your two actions.

Does this also apply to the minimum number of actions you are required to take? I.e. do I have to perform two actions that are not associated with the current regime?


No.


Quote:
Also, what happens in the unlikely event both spots in the same column are vacant?


In about 100 games I've never seen this happen because players would always pay the market before purchasing cards so they might minimize the rupee cost. Still, you have point. I think I'm going to adjust the earlier ruling. So, the first bullet of E7 will read:

"Cost. Pay two rupees for each Rank of the target card. The cost should be paid to the rightmost Market cards (across both rows) with a max of one rupee per card. Vacant market slots cannot receive payment so the player should pay the next market card in that row."
 
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Cole Wehrle
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NoDDs wrote:
Quote:
8. Influence
When adding up influence:
1. YOUR Loyalty card, Prizes and Gifts give you influence.
2. Patriots of the supreme empire in YOUR tableau give you influence.
3. And EVERY spy on a colored band matching the supreme empire gives you influence.
I find it hard to believe that loyalty cards, prizes and gifts provide influence to you regards of their color. I also find it hard to believe that spies of any player provide you with influence as long as they are on a colored band of the Supreme Empire. But that is what is says in H3.
Does this need to be rectified?


You are missing my point. There are three sources for influence, but the wording for calculating influence for these sources is inconsistent on two parts.



Okay, I think I see your point. I'll adjust the wording on these bullet points to make it absolutely clear:

1. Loyalty card, Prizes, and Gifts, if you are loyal to the Empire that achieves supremacy.
2. Patriots of the supreme empire in your tableau.
3. Your Spies on a Patriot or Loyalty Prize colored band that matches the supreme empire.

I will also adjust the definition of influence in the glossary so that there can be no possible confusion.


Edit: After further thought and local discussion, I'm not even sure if I want to adjust this. The rule is about where influence comes from, not which empire it counts for. So, to calculate your influence in an empire, you add up:
1. Your Loyalty card, Prizes, and Gifts. (which, as is stated elsewhere in the rules, count towards the empire you are loyal to).
2. The number of patriots in your tableau. This second bullet should be amend to remove "of that empire." Since, again, the rule is more generally about how to count influence.
3. The third bullet should just revise the start to "For each of your spies on a..."
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Cole Wehrle
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Cole Wehrle wrote:

Quote:
Also, what happens in the unlikely event both spots in the same column are vacant?


In about 100 games I've never seen this happen because players would always pay the market before purchasing cards so they might minimize the rupee cost. Still, you have point. I think I'm going to adjust the earlier ruling. So, the first bullet of E7 will read:

"Cost. Pay two rupees for each Rank of the target card. The cost should be paid to the rightmost Market cards (across both rows) with a max of one rupee per card. Vacant market slots cannot receive payment so the player should pay the next market card in that row."


On further thought, there's no need to amend this rule. The rule reads that the cost is paid to the rightmost market cards. A vacancy is not a market card.
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Cole,

Thank you for your time and effort in addressing my questions. The rules are all clear to me know. Also, I'm glad to see some of the questions were useful for the living rules-set.

In the past I have reviewed several of Phil's Sierra Madre Games' rulebooks, but that was mostly well before final production. Because Pax Pamir is already published it was difficult to find the middle ground between voicing personal confusions and pointing out inconsistencies. I hope I didn't badger you too much

Thanks again, now I am off to find me some players!
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My pleasure! Thank you for giving them such a careful read.
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
NoDDs wrote:
5. Placing units
The bullet for Placing Units in E4 and the glossary section on Cube and Cylinder management are not in agreement.
E4 allows taking units from any other Location where the glossary section allows the units to be taken from any position. I.e. E4 is very restrictive where the units come from and the glossary section has no restrictions at all.
Which version is correct?

They are in agreement. The one place where I could see a little confusion would be spies, since they are not technically on locations. I will adjust E4 "Place Units" to read "anywhere."

One thing that I wonder about for placing Armies, Roads, and Tribes.

Suppose that the number available in the relevant supply is less than the Rank of the card played, and assume that the Location or Connection in question already contains one or more of the relevant Units.

Can I "remove" one of those existing Units and put it back in the same place (to count up to the Rank)? Or must I remove one from somewhere else?

I thought that I read elsewhere that one could place Units of a number up to (but not necessarily equal to) the Rank. If that were the case, then my question doesn't really apply. But I wasn't sure.
 
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
NoDDs wrote:
6. Counter-Espionage
The rules suggests that all spies removed must come from a single card.
Is this correct?

No. You can remove spies on any card where you have at least one spy. I will replace "a" with "any".

I wonder if one could improve on "any" - which might be taken to mean "on any one card where you have at least one Spy" - and would still be incorrect (as I understand things).

Perhaps "on any cards where you have at least one Spy" would be clearer, although some rules lawyers might argue even with that. How about "on any cards on each of which you have at least one Spy"?

Alternatively, one could address this in a new bulleted item: "Spies may be removed from multiple cards, as long as you have at least one Spy on each card from which a Spy is removed."
 
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gillum wrote:
Cole Wehrle wrote:
NoDDs wrote:
5. Placing units
The bullet for Placing Units in E4 and the glossary section on Cube and Cylinder management are not in agreement.
E4 allows taking units from any other Location where the glossary section allows the units to be taken from any position. I.e. E4 is very restrictive where the units come from and the glossary section has no restrictions at all.
Which version is correct?

They are in agreement. The one place where I could see a little confusion would be spies, since they are not technically on locations. I will adjust E4 "Place Units" to read "anywhere."

One thing that I wonder about for placing Armies, Roads, and Tribes.

Suppose that the number available in the relevant supply is less than the Rank of the card played, and assume that the Location or Connection in question already contains one or more of the relevant Units.

Can I "remove" one of those existing Units and put it back in the same place (to count up to the Rank)? Or must I remove one from somewhere else?


You are not compelled to take them from any particular place. So, sure, you can remove units from a location and place them in that same location. The cube/cylinder limit reflects logistical limitations and attrition (remember that each turn represents a year of activity).

Quote:

I thought that I read elsewhere that one could place Units of a number up to (but not necessarily equal to) the Rank. If that were the case, then my question doesn't really apply. But I wasn't sure.


Nope, you've got to place units = rank.
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
There's no need to amend this rule. The rule reads that the cost is paid to the rightmost market cards. A vacancy is not a market card.

Is it the case then that E3's language about "use the other row" applies only to the Purchase action?

If so, it seems that the "if both slots in a column are empty" language can be deleted, as that cannot occur with Purchase.

What if the last two slots in a row are both empty for something like Assassinate?

Would I pay the rightmost card in each row - or the last two cards in the row that is full?
 
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