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Subject: The long slog of kickstarter. What happened to Hasbro or Days Of Wonder ??? rss

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gerald the old master
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To bad the game wasn't done by Hasbro or Days of Wonder. Both Battle Cry and the Memoir 44 series are such great games priced very reasonable. The game pieces are made of excellent non brittle plastic. Just can't figure how Richard Borg didn't go with proven winners in game companies?? Maybe they weren't interested ?? How did it come to this ??
 
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Mark Holmes
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I think you're being a little harsh by implying that Plastic Soldier Company is less than capable of producing an excellent hight quality game.

Just to set the record straight for those who have not actually seen the figures in 'Great War' - they are extremely well-produced high quality detailed sculpts. They are far superior to the Chinese mass produced figures in Axis & Allies (Hasbro) or Memoir 44 (DoW). The issue with the few snapped bayonets is a minor gripe but doesn't detract from the overall visual quality of the game.

As for the reason a bigger game company didn't take up the game; World War 1 is a more esoteric subject area than World war 2 or (certainly for the US market) American Civil War. They probably calculated that they wouldn't shift enough volume to justify the investment. Also, don't forget that all the other C&C games since M44, Battle Cry and Battlelore have been produced by 'smaller' companies (GMT, Zvezda, Toy Vault)

Mark
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Andrzej Sieradzki
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mr_mrholmes wrote:
I think you're being a little harsh by implying that Plastic Soldier Company is less than capable of producing an excellent hight quality game.

Just to set the record straight for those who have not actually seen the figures in 'Great War' - they are extremely well-produced high quality detailed sculpts. They are far superior to the Chinese mass produced figures in Axis & Allies (Hasbro) or Memoir 44 (DoW). The issue with the few snapped bayonets is a minor gripe but doesn't detract from the overall visual quality of the game.

As for the reason a bigger game company didn't take up the game; World War 1 is a more esoteric subject area than World war 2 or (certainly for the US market) American Civil War. They probably calculated that they wouldn't shift enough volume to justify the investment. Also, don't forget that all the other C&C games since M44, Battle Cry and Battlelore have been produced by 'smaller' companies (GMT, Zvezda, Toy Vault)

Mark


I do appreciate your point, but as far as gaming is concerned, after several plays the figurines' details become less and less attractive to those who play scenario after scenario and use the game components extesively - like my buddy and me do.
Their durability become the real issue.
Do you remember the US and German artillery pieces in M'44 core set?
I glued their detailed wheels a hundred times.
I also saw a video review of the GW where the reviewer said he broke 1/3 of the figurines.
I, as a gamer, do prefer less detailed, but more sturdier figurines made of somehow "bending" plastic.
Just 2 cents.
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Bob Gibson
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nightbomber wrote:
mr_mrholmes wrote:
I think you're being a little harsh by implying that Plastic Soldier Company is less than capable of producing an excellent hight quality game.

Just to set the record straight for those who have not actually seen the figures in 'Great War' - they are extremely well-produced high quality detailed sculpts. They are far superior to the Chinese mass produced figures in Axis & Allies (Hasbro) or Memoir 44 (DoW). The issue with the few snapped bayonets is a minor gripe but doesn't detract from the overall visual quality of the game.

As for the reason a bigger game company didn't take up the game; World War 1 is a more esoteric subject area than World war 2 or (certainly for the US market) American Civil War. They probably calculated that they wouldn't shift enough volume to justify the investment. Also, don't forget that all the other C&C games since M44, Battle Cry and Battlelore have been produced by 'smaller' companies (GMT, Zvezda, Toy Vault)

Mark


I do appreciate your point, but as far as gaming is concerned, after several plays the figurines' details become less and less attractive to those who play scenario after scenario and use the game components extesively - like my buddy and me do.
Their durability become the real issue.
Do you remember the US and German artillery pieces in M'44 core set?
I glued their detailed wheels a hundred times.
I also saw a video review of the GW where the reviewer said he broke 1/3 of the figurines.
I, as a gamer, do prefer less detailed, but more sturdier figurines made of somehow "bending" plastic.
Just 2 cents.
I concur with nightbomber. Each to his own, but my first and continued impression is "I wish Mr. Borg hadn't gone in this direction in collaboration with PSC."
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Mark Holmes
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I'd be interested to know how many of the nay-sayers actually own or have played the game

mark
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mike dalziel
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Surely the logical end to your views is one big brother game corporation which stifles the smaller companies and destroys competition. The game components in this game are of a superb quality and yes they will wear out, but surely all games components wear out eventually.
Come on guys, support this and enjoy it for its success and failings, or don't buy in, but please don't moan about a new company trying to produce a quality game, simply because the big corps didn't make it.
Mike
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Andy Pain
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I'd like to concur with everything in that last posting by Mike Dalziel. PSC immediately gave me a new sprue of figures when I mentioned the snapping bayonets issue to them at the Bovington Show earlier this year and I'm sure they have learned a design lesson. The figures themselves paint up beautifully and are well sculpted - I missed the original kickstarter offering but I'm in for the expansion. I'm a bit of a "fan boy" for the C&C "family" of games and whilst the WW1 theme is a bit static compared to the sweep of Ancients or Napoleonics I feel Great War copes well with the problems of trench warfare. I'm grateful to PSC for their support for this game.
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Homo Ludens
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PSC are an experienced company who specifically make miniatures for wargames. They know their onions!

As for TGW, it is a great game. Kickstarter makes sense for small companies to get a game to market without going broke. Making moulds and setting up production runs is not cheap.

As for the latest Kickstarter, I am only in two minds because I don't get this game to the table enough to really justify the expansion at the moment. For the £50 pledge I could get another whole board game that would suit my group better (Fury of Dracula for example).
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gerald the old master
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My point about the game has tact off course somewhat. Please allow me to clarify. The trend today in games all seem to be a Kickstarter production. That's fine ,this helps funding I get it. Small game companies are fine also. As for WW1 not being a great seller in the U.S.A. I understand that possibility. The Great War was a Europe war until the U.S. involvement late in the war. But Axis @ Allies 1914 is a good seller and quite popular here in the states.I have no problem with the bayonets on the troops breaking either. I just felt that a great way to present the game at a more reasonable cost would have been to use soft plastic troops with top down tanks to present more scenarios. It would have cost less to get the base buy in game. But to offer only minis gives one the feeling of( Flames of War)collectable paint your game piece.As an example,( Wings of War)has base games with top down aircraft to play the game. If on the other hand you want mini's they are offered as an upgrade to play the game. But here with Great War its Kickstarter mini's are tuff.The game(Conflict of Heroes) is another game with top downs ,but many in the gaming community "pimp" the game with mini's.There are several different scale models to "pimp" war games from A To Z, I just don't understand the lets do minis only.I just thought the cost could be more reasonable and offer mini's later.
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Mark Holmes
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the old master wrote:
My point about the game has tact off course somewhat. Please allow me to clarify. The trend today in games all seem to be a Kickstarter production. That's fine ,this helps funding I get it. Small game companies are fine also. As for WW1 not being a great seller in the U.S.A. I understand that possibility. The Great War was a Europe war until the U.S. involvement late in the war. But Axis @ Allies 1914 is a good seller and quite popular here in the states.I have no problem with the bayonets on the troops breaking either. I just felt that a great way to present the game at a more reasonable cost would have been to use soft plastic troops with top down tanks to present more scenarios. It would have cost less to get the base buy in game. But to offer only minis gives one the feeling of( Flames of War)collectable paint your game piece.As an example,( Wings of War)has base games with top down aircraft to play the game. If on the other hand you want mini's they are offered as an upgrade to play the game. But here with Great War its Kickstarter mini's are tuff.The game(Conflict of Heroes) is another game with top downs ,but many in the gaming community "pimp" the game with mini's.There are several 1/72 scale models to "pimp" war games from A To Z, I just don't understand the lets do minis only.I just thought the cost could be more reasonable and offer mini's later.


I understand your point and it is well made. PSC is a company that specialises in plastic minis and so their business model for this game was probably always going to come from this angle. It makes sense for them, with their connections in the wargame model industry, to follow this path. Also, they probably figured they would get collateral publicity for their other ranges by expanding into the board game community. As for the cost of the game, wargamers are used to paying a little more to support their hobby and maybe PSC have assumed boardgamers will do the same.

The only other thing I would say about the KS campaign is that PSC were pretty good at delivering on time on the main game and are promising December delivery for the tank expansion. So, unlike some KS campaigns this is not a long drawn-out affair.

Mark
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fightcitymayor
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asobu wrote:
PSC are an experienced company who specifically make miniatures for wargames. They know their onions!
If they "knew their onions" they wouldn't have produced such fragile miniatures. Thus why people were less than pleased when a minis company managed to disappoint with the one area of their supposed expertise.
 
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Minot
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As the original poster, I would love for the RBorg games to be published by Hasbro or Days of Wonder. I think both companies have the economic capability (as proved by DoW with M'44) to provide excellent support for a large number of high quality expansions.

On the other hand, history has proved that it is much more likely companies such as Hasbro or DoW are simply not interested in publishing and supporting C&C games to the extent either RBorg or his fans would prefer. First AH, and then AH/Hasbro seemed to provide minimal marketing support for the two releases of Battle Cry, and both times abandoned it before it released any expansions. DoW likewise, though it released some expansions, itself gave up on Battle Lore "early," handing it (and the seemingly the chance in the near term for any historical medieval C&C) to FFG. Even with M'44, DoW has not seen fit to republish some of the apparently most popular expansions (Tigers in the Snow?), though the reasons are unclear (and admittedly they deserve credit for at least doing it the first place).

All that to say, I doubt Hasbro is interested in C&C games, at least on terms that would be acceptable for RBorg, and considering that Hasbor continues to act as the kiss of death on the C&C ACW series, I doubt RBorg would be that enthusiastic about trying Hasbro again (though admittedly, I speculate here). DoW, while they have done well with M'44, would appear from their sell off of the Battle Lore line not to be that interested in new C&C series, certainly not ones that will most probably have limited initial appeal, such as TGW.

So, I agree, I prefer the initial style and quality of DoW releases over GMT/PSC/Zveda. I desire to be able to buy a game, tear off a little plastic wrap, scan the clean and well-laid out rules, and start playing within 5-15 minutes, over having to spend significant amounts of time stickering or clipping and deciphering occasional ambiguous rules. But, I would much rather have GMT or PSC publish these games than no one at all, and, once the initial pain of the stickering or clipping and reading is past, the components and gameplay are as good or better than anything Hasbor or DoW ever released.
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fightcitymayor wrote:
asobu wrote:
PSC are an experienced company who specifically make miniatures for wargames. They know their onions!
If they "knew their onions" they wouldn't have produced such fragile miniatures. Thus why people were less than pleased when a minis company managed to disappoint with the one area of their supposed expertise.


The miniatures are not inherently fragile, but they were attached "wrong" on the sprues.

Once cut, they are at least as durable as anything form the A&A series, and should last as long under normal wear as any other similar game.

If they have a weakness, it may be that they are more prone to snap rather than bend under extreme pressure, but as long as you are not regular stepping on them or hitting them with a hammer, I doubt that will be a problem.
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Andrzej Sieradzki
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My second hand KS edition of TGW still in shrinkwrap plus all the stretch goals has arrived today. TANK! expansion I have supported is being eagerly awaited.
The quality of the minis is really high (but they seem to be really fragile on the sprues). What I meant in my previous post was not to criticize PSC for doing their job on the minis which i really appreciate, but to point that in the RB's system it is just better to have minis that are more sturdy than more detailed. For the games of the line are not miniatures games as a genre, but board games with some miniature component in form of units. Thus I prefer - and this is my strict personal choice - to shift the gauge toward durability, not toward details Thus for my taste M'44, BC 150 and Battlelore 1ed (do not own the 2nd) and even CC:A blocks are better, more convenient and nicer to use game pieces than the "detailed" ones.
But of course I am happy what I got with TGW box and can not wait for the tanks!
 
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David Groves
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NimitsTexan wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
asobu wrote:
PSC are an experienced company who specifically make miniatures for wargames. They know their onions!
If they "knew their onions" they wouldn't have produced such fragile miniatures. Thus why people were less than pleased when a minis company managed to disappoint with the one area of their supposed expertise.


The miniatures are not inherently fragile, but they were attached "wrong" on the sprues.

Once cut, they are at least as durable as anything form the A&A series, and should last as long under normal wear as any other similar game.

If they have a weakness, it may be that they are more prone to snap rather than bend under extreme pressure, but as long as you are not regular stepping on them or hitting them with a hammer, I doubt that will be a problem.


I love this game and the minis and I'm more than happy with PSC to continue making expansions but do beware, fellas, that the British minis do not travel well. I recently bought another used copy and despite the seller packing the game in the most excellent way I still lost five bayonets in transit. The detached bayonets were in the box with the minis. Now, I'm a gamer and just trim off the damage and have soldiers with bayonet less rifles but for the gamer cum modeller this may not be an acceptable loss.

Dave
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gerald the old master
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I have no problem with painting ,stickering, cumbersome rules, plastic wrap, brittle moldings or small companies. That being said, My point was and is Kickstarter offers just enough to have you on the hook to offer you just enough to need more . Its an alluring way to string you on and on and on. This game could have been offered as a more attractive buy in with more scenarios ,and also offer miniatures as a bonus for those who want them to make the game more detailed. Cost is not a problem for me either . It's just a vibe this game is sending to me compared to other Richard Borg ventures. It would be more interesting to buy the game and cheaper...... that's the key word cheaper, to buy your own mini's in ,lets say 1/72nd scale as an example ,and paint and make a game with the available products out there at a fraction of the cost then haven to buy into the Kickstarter way. Or buy PSC miniatures made for the game because of the unique scale. I hope the game makes it and I am not trying to make it look like anything else. I just feel the game WAS made very limited to hook you into piece by piece buying to play the game. I just hope the whistle you poor o'l chaps hear to go "over the top" is not a Kickstarter machinegun mowing you down in "no man's land" ! You won't loose any blood ,just money. rat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat ........
 
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gerald the old master
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One more thing as for not getting Tigers in the snow for Memoir 44, I can think of dozens of games from Formula De to Avalon Hill that produced ad on's that sold out and that was it. I myself have had to hunt for ad on pieces for as long as I can remember. Game companies cannot warehouse products for all the " Johnny come latelys" Memoir 44 is one of the most highly rated games on the geek. Last I looked it had 16517 ratings, 4939 comments and rated 57th. Days of Wonder did something correct for Richard Borg....
 
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David Groves wrote:


I love this game and the minis and I'm more than happy with PSC to continue making expansions but do beware, fellas, that the British minis do not travel well. I recently bought another used copy and despite the seller packing the game in the most excellent way I still lost five bayonets in transit. The detached bayonets were in the box with the minis. Now, I'm a gamer and just trim off the damage and have soldiers with bayonet less rifles but for the gamer cum modeller this may not be an acceptable loss.

Dave


Hmm, just to clarify for my knowledge, but were you certain they were all attached pre-transit? Admittedly, I have not tried to ship them, but I have not been any more gentle with my Brits than with my M'44 or BC pieces, and so far I have seen no hint of additional damage.
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David Groves
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NimitsTexan wrote:
David Groves wrote:


I love this game and the minis and I'm more than happy with PSC to continue making expansions but do beware, fellas, that the British minis do not travel well. I recently bought another used copy and despite the seller packing the game in the most excellent way I still lost five bayonets in transit. The detached bayonets were in the box with the minis. Now, I'm a gamer and just trim off the damage and have soldiers with bayonet less rifles but for the gamer cum modeller this may not be an acceptable loss.

Dave


Hmm, just to clarify for my knowledge, but were certain they were all attached pre-transit. Admittedly, I have not tried to ship them, but I have not been any more gentle with my Brits than with my M'44 or BC pieces, but so far I have seen no hint of additional damage.


That said, I've had no breakages with them at home since de-spruing and I don't wrap them in cotton wool. It just seemed strange to find five bayonets floating around in the small, well packed box that the seller had wrapped up the British in as if the bayonets had detached in transit. I wouldn't have thought that someone would pack the broken bayonets having damaged them while de-spruing but who knows. AS I say, not a problem to me but to some buyers and sellers transit damage may cause a dispute.

Dave
 
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To be fair, Gerald the old master does make a good point. The simple fact is CnC WW1 is simply too small to fit into Hasbro and DoW's business models.

This is our first boardgame and lets just say it has come with a steep learning curve. One which has been well learned and assimilated. You will see future Great War expansions with much better miniatures. You will also see other CnC projects with much improved miniatures (big hint dropped for the sharper minds out there.............)

Battle Cry boardgame piece durability and practicality coupled with the best plastic sculpting Plastic Soldier Company designers can produce..........
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Martin S
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asobu wrote:
For the £50 pledge I could get another whole board game that would suit my group better (Fury of Dracula for example).


I'm in the same place - but luckily Christmas is comng up! FoD looks a reasonable bet for UK delivery by then and the Tanks! expansion perhaps early January 2016?
 
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goo PSC GAMES,

Did you say "Other C&C Projects?"
Did you say "Battle Cry?"

I'm listening!

BTW, expansions to TGW should keep you going for a nice long time itself, if you truly plan to include all the major nations, etc., I would think. I'm not that big a Kickstarter fan, but although I don't have the game yet, the physical product seems just fine otherwise!
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Compass Games is doing a Revolutionary War era C&C game with miniatures. Maybe PSC is the company doing them?
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From what I read/heard in the past, I think that having different C&C games published by different companies is something that suits well both the designer and the companies.

For a company, it is not easy to avoid the label "still the same thing only changing the theme" that people from the outside put to the C&C series. If I remeber well, GMT is the exception with Ancients and Napoleonics, but those two are very distant in history.

For the designer, having new and enthusiastic companies exploring the new versions is a source of new interactions, ideas and approaches, while the other companies may be tempted to use the same old recipes that have already worked... and that would make the games look too similar from the outside.

I'm happy that different companies are publishing different C&C versions with different components and rules. And if one day one of the companies goes out of the scene, the whole series will not disappear with it!
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franchi wrote:

And if one day one of the companies goes out of the scene, the whole series will not disappear with it!


Like say what (essentially) has happened with Axis & Allies?
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