Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

504» Forums » General

Subject: Is This Game A Mess, or What? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: Wah [+] [View All]
ARTHUR REILLY
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
After reading through all the forums and comments on this game, I can only conclude, that this game is a mess.

The designer only played half the games in the bunch. Lots of rules don't make any sense. There are components in the game, that doesn't explain how they are used. Games that are just unplayable. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.

Sure it sounds nice, the thought of having 504 games in one box. But who ever heard of a game where the designer, for whatever reason, couldn't play test properly. Yeah, that 504 number sounds exciting, but in reality, most people that pick this mess up won't even get around to playing most of them. Just ask the designer, I'm sure he'd agree.

To sum up, I think they were trying for way too much in a short period of time and left us with, not 504, but some other number where the games make sense and the rules are correct, etc.

Better luck next time.
 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jens
Germany
Wiesbaden
flag msg tools
A man, a plan:
badge
Anal Panama
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
I played three worlds and none of them was unplayable. I also don't see how any other combination of the modules we were using would be unplayable.

On a personal note, I really enjoyed all three games (one of them not as much as the other two, but that was because we played it wrong).

So, judging from my (albeit still superficial) experience with 504, I'd say no, it's not a mess. I do agree that it's got some "accessibility" issues (the combination of rules is something you need to get used to … but it gets better). But that is understandable in a highly modularized environment.
19 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian Fuerst-Brunner
Germany
Neuching
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
Besides bad grammar, what is the meaning of your post?

Did you buy it, played it and now you are disappointed? After how much games?

Please explain.

16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.


And a pony! I definitely want a pony!
61 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
Another one? How many new skeptical 504-bashing threads by people who've not even played the game does the 504 forum need?

MENAREUS2000 wrote:
After reading through all the forums and comments on this game, I can only conclude, that this game is a mess.

After following the forum discussions, I can only conclude that you're greatly exaggerating. Especially given the generally favorable reports from people who've actually played the game.

Seriously, every game of this complexity has the same sorts of issues which you describe (some rule ambiguities etc, and forum threads with people not sure about rules).

By your reasoning a game like Combat Commander: Europe (which is one of the most popular and most often played wargames and widely praised for its excellent rulebook and very short errata/FAQ) is an unplayable mess which should not have been published, because its forum has so many rule question threads.

Quote:
But who ever heard of a game where the designer, for whatever reason, couldn't play test properly.

I'd guess that most of us have. I'm not sure why you haven't.

The fact that FF didn't personally playtest all 504 possible combinations doesn't seem surprising or worrisome to me. Do you think e.g. donaldx tested every combination of Dominion cards and every combination of Kingdom Builder boards? Do you think that the creators of Cosmic Encounter tested every combination of alien powers?

I would be surprised if FF did not personally playtest all possible pairs of modules (an efficient and effective testing technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-pairs_testing )

And he mentioned going so far as to create computer software to automatically test all 504 combinations - which is more than happens to most games.

Quote:
Yeah, that 504 number sounds exciting, but in reality, most people that pick this mess up won't even get around to playing most of them. Just ask the designer, I'm sure he'd agree.

Why does that matter?

Do most people who pick up Dominion and Kingdom Builder play most of the possible setups? Do most people who pick up Combat Commander play most of the zillion possible scenarios which its random scenario generator can produce? Do most chess variant fans who play Chess 960 play most of the 960 possible starting setups?

Quote:
To sum up, I think they were trying for way too much in a short period of time and left us with, not 504, but some other number where the games make sense and the rules are correct, etc.

I think I'll find out directly by playing the game instead of jumping to conclusions from a few forum threads about rule confusions, which happen in every game with a 32-page rulebook.
47 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Blackwell
United Kingdom
Saltdean
East Sussex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
And I'd probably call that slander or just plain rude.

If the game's not for you, that's one thing but unless all you want is a flame war, I think you're wasting your time.

M B
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Boardgame
United Kingdom
Penrith
Cumbria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
Nice post! The frantic, alarmed posts by people who haven't played this game yet and have determined that it can't possibly work are hilarious. Keep 'em coming!

Whoever heard of such a game as this? Well, no one, I think. Outrageous, isn't it? If I hadn't already foolishly blind-bought this game, and now delusionally played and enjoyed it, I I'd be the first to agree with your carefully-considered sentiments.
20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Spirio
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
There are components in the game, that doesn't explain how they are used.


why is this a problem, don't you like to get extra stuff, for free, even though you can't use it directly
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ozzy perez
United States
Hialeah
Fl
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
DaviddesJ wrote:
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.


And a pony! I definitely want a pony!




I want a pink one, if such a thing is possible.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ozzy perez
United States
Hialeah
Fl
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
After reading through all the forums and comments on this game, I can only conclude, that this game is a mess.

The designer only played half the games in the bunch. Lots of rules don't make any sense. There are components in the game, that doesn't explain how they are used. Games that are just unplayable. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.

Sure it sounds nice, the thought of having 504 games in one box. But who ever heard of a game where the designer, for whatever reason, couldn't play test properly. Yeah, that 504 number sounds exciting, but in reality, most people that pick this mess up won't even get around to playing most of them. Just ask the designer, I'm sure he'd agree.

To sum up, I think they were trying for way too much in a short period of time and left us with, not 504, but some other number where the games make sense and the rules are correct, etc.

Better luck next time.



Huh huh, ok cool. Question, have you played it?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Brosius
United States
Needham Heights
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
After reading through all the forums and comments on this game, I can only conclude, that this game is a mess.

surprise laugh shake whistle
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Hutton
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
Eric Brosius wrote:
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
After reading through all the forums and comments on this game, I can only conclude, that this game is a mess.

surprise laugh shake whistle


Having worked through a couple of actual games, this game is by no means a mess. It is, indeed, actually quite promising in that the nature of the games changes quite dramatically. The share games (ch9) in particular seem to be well thought-out in the way they interact and in the decisions they require of players.

What is a mess is the translation into English, which is by turns increasingly ambiguous and grammatically poor. It is a shame, as the game itself is quite promising, but I will be downloading the German edition and probably making a start on re-translating it, starting with option 9 and moving backwards.

My suspicion is that the German original is more than adequate, but the English translation was not given the prominence needed for such a complex ruleset, and the decision may have been taken to go with what they had rather than wait for a series of revisions and corrections.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
corum irsei
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
Lots of rules don't make any sense. There are components in the game, that doesn't explain how they are used. Games that are just unplayable.
I don't see how you could have come to that conclusion.

- Some rules may be hard to grasp or somewhat ambigious, but it's neither 'lots' nor is it true that there are rules that don't make sense.

- The only game component that has no clearly defined purpose is the boat, and that's pointed out right in the component overview in the game manual.

- Are you referring to the end-game condition of 23 goods that need to be delivered in the transport module, which isn't possible in a 2-player game? One of the designers has already posted a temporary fix and it will soon be addressed in a FAQ.

In a game of such a complexity some initial issues are to be expected and do not worry me at all.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kim Choy
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If This Game A Mess, or What?
After reading through the OP and comments in this thread, I can only conclude, that this thread is a mess.

The OP only used half of the brain in his head. Lots (sic) of the subject line doesn't make any sense (If this game?). There are punctuation marks in the OP, that don't relate how they are used. Words that are just illegible. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

At this price point, they need to hold off on this post, or promise an edited re-print in the near future.

Sure it sounds nice, the thought of having thoughts in a post. But who ever heard of a thread where the author, for whatever reason, couldn't proof read properly. Yeah, that thread subject sounds exciting, but in reality, most people that click on this mess won't even get around to reading most of them. Just ask the author, I'm sure he'd agree.

To sum up, I think the OP was trolling for way too much in a short post and left us with, not 504, but some other number where the grammar makes sense and the punctuation is correct, etc.

Better luck next time.
23 
 Thumb up
0.26
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ed G.
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.


And a pony! I definitely want a pony!


You only get the promise of a pony as the OP wants only a promise of a reprint.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ozzy perez
United States
Hialeah
Fl
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fluffy James wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.


And a pony! I definitely want a pony!




And a trained squirrel!





Those are hard to get.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan R
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
SapoLJackson wrote:
Fluffy James wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.


And a pony! I definitely want a pony!




And a trained squirrel!





Those are hard to get.


I saw one waterskiing once.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
And a pony! I definitely want a pony!

How to create your own pony, 504-style:
16 
 Thumb up
0.26
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Harald Torvatn
Norway
Trondheim
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you have the same module in position 1 and 3. That is not 504 style.
12 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Harald wrote:
I think you have the same module in position 1 and 3. That is not 504 style.

True; the eagerly anticipated farm animal expansion does modify some of the basic 504 rules.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ozzy perez
United States
Hialeah
Fl
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Vroomer wrote:
SapoLJackson wrote:
Fluffy James wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
MENAREUS2000 wrote:
At this price point, they need to hold off on this game, or promise a fixed re-print in the near future.


And a pony! I definitely want a pony!




And a trained squirrel!





Those are hard to get.


I saw one waterskiing once.




I saw one doing push-ups in my yard las night. I offered it a drink but it ran away.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
At least Arthur seems to have given up his former habit of signing BGG posts with "Cheers, Arthur Reilly". His name is STILL ALL UPPERCASE though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
Antagonistic, insulting, or otherwise disruptive comments ARE NOT welcome here.

Please use the icon when you see disruptive or antagonistic comments or any other violations of the Community Rules. This serves two purposes:

1- using the icon will bring that post to the attention of forum moderators so they can deal with it appropriately. We prefer that you not respond to the post directly. Responding invites the offender to continue, and if you respond aggressively you may end up dragging yourself down with the offender.

2- if enough users flag a post using the icon then that post will be hidden from general view, preventing others from being exposed to it.

Thanks!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.