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Subject: What are all the ways to advance your Clairvoyance level? rss

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Rob Tarr
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I only see two ways in the rules, but discussions on this forum make it seem like there's a third.

We just played our first game and several people seemed baffled at how difficult it was to move up the clairvoyance track.

So here's how you advance...

* When you have correctly identified your combination of 3 psychic cards, you advance 1 space on the track for each hour left in the day. (p10, right-hand column, middle)
* When you correctly use a clairvoyance token (check or X) on another psychic's guess. (p10, left-hand column, bottom AND p10, right-hand column, top)

But I've also seen references here on the BGG forums that when you identify each card you move up TWO spaces.

Marinealver wrote:
So lets say everyone been selecting the right card with their intuition token. You only get 6 clairvoyance (2 x 3 = 6 < 7) which is not enough to see the second card in the final round.

So is that an actual rule? If so, where is it in the book?

And if not, how can you ever do better than 6 for the clairvoyance tokens and 4 for the advancing to the epilogue as quickly as possible?
 
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Donny Behne
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A) Guessing your card correctly doesn't give you clairvoyance points.

B) When you start round four, everyone gets their used clairvoyance tokens returned so you may use them again.

So that's a maximum of 16 if you use all six correctly, twice, then get yours done in three rounds.
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B C Z
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* Point a thumbsup icon at another player's crystal ball (guess) and have that player's crystal ball advance
* Point a thumbsdown icon at another player's crystal ball (guess) and have that player's crystal ball NOT advance
* Complete your own "thread" (person/place/thing), gaining clairvoyance equal to the number of remaining hours on the clock.


Perhaps you are missing the rule that says all clairvoyance tokens are returned at the start of hour 4 (mentioned in the link above), allowing a second use?

This allows 12 potential agree/disagree tokens and 4 potential hour points (solving your own puzzle on turn 3), for a maximum potential of 16, the last 9 of which don't matter a whit.
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Rob Tarr
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OK, yeah, I missed that the tokens come back in HOUR four. I assumed it was in the epilogue so you could vote. My bad.

Thanks!
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Randy Bieri
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tarrkid wrote:
OK, yeah, I missed that the tokens come back in HOUR four. I assumed it was in the epilogue so you could vote. My bad.

Thanks!



I was confusing "round 4" as the epilogue too there. In my mind it was thinking the first 3 rounds where person, place, item, & the 4th round was the actual killer guessing.
Thanks for clarification again BGG users that this was referring to hours instead of steps!
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Erich Claussen
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kelann08 wrote:
A) Guessing your card correctly doesn't give you clairvoyance points.


Well, not for each one, but you get clairvoyance points for every hour left on the clock when you correctly identify all 3.
 
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Leo Lolo
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Very good! I also misunderstood the Round 4 -thing. Thanks for clarification because I really did wonder how to achieve 11 clairvoyance-points (as shown in the example in the rule book).
 
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Hannes Versluys
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Jup, same issue here! Now it is indeed possible to advance beyond 10!

Thx all!
 
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Yes this thread is 6 days old sorry. Thanks, I didn't notice that return on hour 4 thing either.

My first play we actually completely ignored the clairvoyance track/tokens and just had a final round where everyone could see everything. It was mostly a learning game though to get the hang of things.

But good catch on the round 4 thing, I will reread my rulebook.
 
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Dora Emon
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Wouldn't it be possible for everyone in a 4 player game to not go above 6 clairvoyance?

Granted the scenario would be rare but if everyone got all their guesses correct by round 3, it would mean you would only use 2 agree tokens since the other 2 are disagrees. So then everyone would get only 6 clairvoyance. 2 for the 2 agree tokens and 4 for the time remaining.

It seems wrong to only be shown 2 cards when everyone was perfect in their guessing. Am I miscalculating something?
 
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Eilsybear wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible for everyone in a 4 player game to not go above 6 clairvoyance?

Granted the scenario would be rare but if everyone got all their guesses correct by round 3, it would mean you would only use 2 agree tokens since the other 2 are disagrees. So then everyone would get only 6 clairvoyance. 2 for the 2 agree tokens and 4 for the time remaining.

It seems wrong to only be shown 2 cards when everyone was perfect in their guessing. Am I miscalculating something?


I think you broke the game.
 
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Dora Emon
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evilnox wrote:
Eilsybear wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible for everyone in a 4 player game to not go above 6 clairvoyance?

Granted the scenario would be rare but if everyone got all their guesses correct by round 3, it would mean you would only use 2 agree tokens since the other 2 are disagrees. So then everyone would get only 6 clairvoyance. 2 for the 2 agree tokens and 4 for the time remaining.

It seems wrong to only be shown 2 cards when everyone was perfect in their guessing. Am I miscalculating something?


I think you broke the game.


I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but I realized my question was somewhat addressed in here.
 
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I was not being sarcastic.

In that example though, I would award the two extra points they could have used on the positive guesses again after round 4. As in, giving them two extra points bringing them to being able to see the third card on the final lineup.

I personally would probably give them a point for the wrong guess tokens they haven't used as well so that they didn't feel they needed to stall the game for extra points on purpose.
 
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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evilnox wrote:
Eilsybear wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible for everyone in a 4 player game to not go above 6 clairvoyance?

Granted the scenario would be rare but if everyone got all their guesses correct by round 3, it would mean you would only use 2 agree tokens since the other 2 are disagrees. So then everyone would get only 6 clairvoyance. 2 for the 2 agree tokens and 4 for the time remaining.

It seems wrong to only be shown 2 cards when everyone was perfect in their guessing. Am I miscalculating something?


I think you broke the game.


I agree, this is a problem.
 
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James A
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I don't know where your getting your numbers from. Everyone has three checks and three X's. So in a perfect game with no mistakes, your max still hits seven. 3 checks plus 4 hours left.
 
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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You have 6 clairvoyance tokens. You can use 0-6 of them in the first 3 hours/turn. If you use them all and are correct every time then that is 6 points. Then, when you advance the clock to 4:00 you get your discarded clairvoyance tokens back and can use them for hours 4-7 for another 6 points. If you happen to get all your intuitions correct on the first 3 hours, you still get to use these clairvoyance tokens while others play and you get 4 points for getting done early.

So it's 6+6+4=16 is the max in a 6-7 player game.

In a 4-5 player game you only have 4 tokens instead of 6 so it's
4+4+4=12 max.

Edit: sorry I miss understood. In a 4-5 player game you only get 4 tokens, 2 check and 2 cross. If everyone gets everything correct in the first 3 hours and uses the 2 checks correctly (won't matter if they used a cross because it would be wrong), then everyone would have 2+4=6 points each.
 
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Josh
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The clock has a picture of a token at the 4th Hour. I don't think this is explicitly mentioned in the rules. I noticed the clock, and another player guessed the meaning of it, but it wasn't obvious.
 
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You can't handle the truth?
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JoshBot wrote:
The clock has a picture of a token at the 4th Hour. I don't think this is explicitly mentioned in the rules. I noticed the clock, and another player guessed the meaning of it, but it wasn't obvious.
On page 10, in the section about the tokens, beside the large pink and yellow exclamation point, and the word "important" bolded, it says this exact rule...
 
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Robert Stewart
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crambaza wrote:
JoshBot wrote:
The clock has a picture of a token at the 4th Hour. I don't think this is explicitly mentioned in the rules. I noticed the clock, and another player guessed the meaning of it, but it wasn't obvious.
On page 10, in the section about the tokens, beside the large pink and yellow exclamation point, and the word "important" bolded, it says this exact rule...


It doesn't mention the marking on the clock though.

Also, it would probably have been better to have put (or repeated) that rule a little later, after the "what to do if you guessed right/wrong" sections so that the flow of the rules follows the flow of the game.
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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rmsgrey wrote:
crambaza wrote:
JoshBot wrote:
The clock has a picture of a token at the 4th Hour. I don't think this is explicitly mentioned in the rules. I noticed the clock, and another player guessed the meaning of it, but it wasn't obvious.
On page 10, in the section about the tokens, beside the large pink and yellow exclamation point, and the word "important" bolded, it says this exact rule...


It doesn't mention the marking on the clock though.

Also, it would probably have been better to have put (or repeated) that rule a little later, after the "what to do if you guessed right/wrong" sections so that the flow of the rules follows the flow of the game.


yes it's confusing and they could have done a better job.
yes, I don't see anywhere where they mention the mark on the clock. go figure.
 
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Thomas Nicol
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Eilsybear wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible for everyone in a 4 player game to not go above 6 clairvoyance?

Granted the scenario would be rare but if everyone got all their guesses correct by round 3, it would mean you would only use 2 agree tokens since the other 2 are disagrees. So then everyone would get only 6 clairvoyance. 2 for the 2 agree tokens and 4 for the time remaining.

It seems wrong to only be shown 2 cards when everyone was perfect in their guessing. Am I miscalculating something?


We actually hit exactly this situation last night. The psychics all blazed through their characters and locations, and in their discussion actually all correctly identified their designated objects with a pretty high level of confidence, but then realized that if they all guessed correctly again, they would be in serious trouble for the final vision. One of them had correctly used both of his positive clarvoyance tokens, and the others were close behind, but if they were all correct again, they would all have to vote based on a single card. So they all intentionally threw their guesses that round so they could actually use their remaining X markers, and get their discarded tokens back to guess positively again on round 4. One psychic actually purposefully threw the next round as well, to give another one of the trailing psychics the opportunity to push up into the 3-card range.

So yeah, the rules as written create perverse incentives that break the narrative of the game. As the ghost, it was also super-frustrating to have come up with extra visions for psychics who understood the first set perfectly well. Suggestions for house-rules that don't punish players for doing so well would be very welcome.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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tdnicol wrote:
Suggestions for house-rules that don't punish players for doing so well would be very welcome.
"When all investigators have correctly guessed their suspect, location and weapon, each investigator gets a further bonus to their Clairvoyance level equal to the number of remaining rounds."

This gives even more incentive for players who have correctly guessed all their cards to assist their fellow investigators; not only will the remaining investigators get more CV points for finishing early, but those players who were more astute will as well.
 
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Thomas Nicol
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ryudoowaru wrote:
tdnicol wrote:
Suggestions for house-rules that don't punish players for doing so well would be very welcome.
"When all investigators have correctly guessed their suspect, location and weapon, each investigator gets a further bonus to their Clairvoyance level equal to the number of remaining rounds."

This gives even more incentive for players who have correctly guessed all their cards to assist their fellow investigators; not only will the remaining investigators get more CV points for finishing early, but those players who were more astute will as well.


Thanks, but that rule is already accounted for.

If you read the scenario Eilsybear laid out, the maximum clarvoyance any psychic could get if all 3 psychics guess correct in the first three rounds is 6 -- 2 clarvoyance for their two positive tokens, and 4 for completing their series with 4 hours remaining. This puts them at a disadvantage in the last phase, so they have clear incentive to throw the round to gain clarvoyance. If some psychics have not gotten a great record with their clarvoyance tokens up until that point, they may be looking at entering the final phase with *only* the points they gained from catching their own clues quickly, and the others then have even more incentive to throw the round to allow their teammate to catch up.

The rules reward psychics more for intentionally throwing rounds than correctly guessing their object (assuming they're confident they understand their first vision), as they could then use both of their negative tokens on their teammates known-to-be-incorrect guesses to gain multiple clarvoyance points, while only sacrificing one clarvoyance from their ending bonus. Doing so on round 3 is rewarded particularly well, as they'll get their positive tokens back and can rack up even more points the next round.

Has anyone else either encountered this situation, or otherwise had psychics intentionally throw rounds to gain clarvoyance?
 
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Trevor Schadt
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tdnicol wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
"When all investigators have correctly guessed their suspect, location and weapon, each investigator gets a further bonus to their Clairvoyance level equal to the number of remaining rounds."
If you read the scenario Eilsybear laid out, the maximum clarvoyance any psychic could get if all 3 psychics guess correct in the first three rounds is 6 -- 2 clarvoyance for their two positive tokens, and 4 for completing their series with 4 hours remaining. This puts them at a disadvantage in the last phase, so they have clear incentive to throw the round to gain clarvoyance.
Right, and that's what my suggestion is meant to circumvent. In that case, because all the psychics have guessed correctly by round 3, there would be 4 rounds remaining, so each psychic would get another 4 CV points. That would give each psychic a total of 10:
* 2 for using their two positive tokens;
* 4 for correctly guessing all their cards by round 3;
* 4 for all psychics having guessed all their cards by round 3.
This will get all the psychics into the realm of "seeing all three cards" regardless of player count, which ideally is where they should be. They will also all be tied for CV points, which is as it should be, since they all did equally well.

If you don't agree, then maybe I don't understand the problem that you're trying to solve?
 
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Laura "lelo" D. Arrowsmith Deddens Gerard
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ryudoowaru wrote:
tdnicol wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
"When all investigators have correctly guessed their suspect, location and weapon, each investigator gets a further bonus to their Clairvoyance level equal to the number of remaining rounds."
If you read the scenario Eilsybear laid out, the maximum clarvoyance any psychic could get if all 3 psychics guess correct in the first three rounds is 6 -- 2 clarvoyance for their two positive tokens, and 4 for completing their series with 4 hours remaining. This puts them at a disadvantage in the last phase, so they have clear incentive to throw the round to gain clarvoyance.
Right, and that's what my suggestion is meant to circumvent. In that case, because all the psychics have guessed correctly by round 3, there would be 4 rounds remaining, so each psychic would get another 4 CV points. That would give each psychic a total of 10:
* 2 for using their two positive tokens;
* 4 for correctly guessing all their cards by round 3;
* 4 for all psychics having guessed all their cards by round 3.
This will get all the psychics into the realm of "seeing all three cards" regardless of player count, which ideally is where they should be. They will also all be tied for CV points, which is as it should be, since they all did equally well.

If you don't agree, then maybe I don't understand the problem that you're trying to solve?


Are you talking about 4-5 player? Seams like it because you are only giving 2 points instead of 3 for using positive tokens. But then you only need 7 points to see all 3 cards, not 10.

Would you suggest something different for 6-7 player where each player gets 6 tokens (3 positive and 3 negative) and the min to see all 3 cards is 10?
 
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