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Vietnam 1965-1975» Forums » Rules

Subject: Withdrawal vs breakdown of VC Regiments rss

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Bob A

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As is in the rules, when VC or ARVN units disband withdraw, they "refill" into the corresponding draft pools if they used population to build them.

My question is 2 part: when disbanding a VC regiment, do you get the full 4 pop points back from it, or just 3 since it takes 3 battalions to build?
I have assumed it to be all 4, since that is what is stated on the unit char. But then this raises the following question:

During the VC regiment breakdown segment, you can create 3 battalions from a regiment, but the rules don't mention the 4th population point that was used to create the regiment. Does that just disappear, or is it reclaimed as well? Are you withdrawing a unit?
I'm leaning towards reclaiming it then as well.


Aside: For some reason, I always picture a regiment breaking down as if a spider egg sac is ruptured, and you see all the baby spiders running around...

Yeah, I'm weird. shake


Edited for clarification on disband vs withdraw
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Fred Buchholz
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Re: Disbanding and breakdown of VC Regiments
Did I miss something, I thought disbanding a VC regiment would just give you 6 replacement points (strength is 6) not manpower (draft) back.
Then again I have never disbanded only "dispersed" a VC unit in any game of this I have played. I would say you get all 4 back because it took that many to build it (you get all the Manpower back on ARVN regiments but no supply I would think it is the same for VC units.

The Break down of a regiment could give you 3 "3 strength" battalions, etc.
I always played the 4th manpower is considered distributed to the battalions and you would loose it(when building the regiment I think of it as the artilelry and command structure that makes it a Regiment).

Just my opinion on the rules I don't have them in front of me to check
 
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Mark Evans
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Re: Disbanding and breakdown of VC Regiments
mrboba1 wrote:
As is in the rules, when VC or ARVN units disband, they "refill" into the corresponding draft pools if they used population to build them.


To be clear disband is not a game term I am familiar with. There is disperse, withdraw, and breakdown.

Quote:
My question is 2 part: when disbanding a VC regiment, do you get the full 4 pop points back from it, or just 3 since it takes 3 battalions to build?


Disperse and Breakdown are easy.
Disperse = 6 replacement points
Breakdown = no rebate
Withdrawal is the hard one. I expect the answer would be 4 population are credited back to the Viet Cong.

Quote:
I have assumed it to be all 4, since that is what is stated on the unit char. But then this raises the following question:


I go along with this.

Quote:
During the VC regiment breakdown segment, you can create 3 battalions from a regiment, but the rules don't mention the 4th population point that was used to create the regiment. Does that just disappear, or is it reclaimed as well?


The rule does mention the population. It says it is forfeit, essentially.

Quote:
Are you withdrawing a unit?


Not really. Withdrawal is a different beast it seems.

Quote:
I'm leaning towards reclaiming it then as well.

Aside: For some reason, I always picture a regiment breaking down as if a spider egg sac is ruptured, and you see all the baby spiders running around...

Yeah, I'm weird. shake


Eh, OK.
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Curt Chambers

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Re: Disbanding and breakdown of VC Regiments
Mark's interpretation makes sense.
 
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Bob A

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Re: Disbanding and breakdown of VC Regiments
Thanks. I meant withdraw in my first line, and have edited it as such.

Fred: I'm not dispersing them for RPs, I'm withdrawing them in the interphase, which allows VC (and ARVN) to regain draft points back into the fold to use again (eg: If I withdraw a VC battalion, I get back the 1 draft it cost to make it, lowering the VC draft by 1, but I don't get back the 2 supplies).

That seems pretty solid in the rules.

My question was about the breakdown, and whether that follows these rules. But Mark's interpretation seems good to me, so I'm going to go with that.

 
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Robert Brown
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I'm certain Mark's interpretation of the loss of the fourth draft/personnel point is correct. The first paragraph of Rule 9 BREAKDOWNS (page 18) reads:

"VC Regiments may be broken down into 3 battalions during the Unit Status Phase. ... No supplies or personnel are recovered (17.5)."

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Bob A

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suhiir wrote:
I'm certain Mark's interpretation of the loss of the fourth draft/personnel point is correct. The first paragraph of Rule 9 BREAKDOWNS (page 18) reads:

"VC Regiments may be broken down into 3 battalions during the Unit Status Phase. ... No supplies or personnel are recovered (17.5)."



surprise Well, crikey. I need to read more. (Even though I had poured through what I thought were the relevant topics)
 
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craig grinnell
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I was sooooo tempted to add something totally un-useful, but decided not. laugh
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Fred Buchholz
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Reviving this thread instead of making a new one:
If you want to break down a regiment to 3 battalions do you include the "destroyed ones" from this season, I know the rules say they should be set aside (so they can be counted for possible morale boost at next interphase) but what if you have less than 3 battalions in the force pool but have say 20 in the "dead pool" (Pun intended go Deadpool!)ninja
Wouldn't you be allowed to use those? it then would follow they need to be in the random selection as well doesn't it?
What part of the rules am I not seeing this described in?
 
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Petri P
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I'd say you can only use battalions from the force pool, not ones which are "set aside"

I.e the battalions in the "NLF Eliminated Units" box in VASSAL are not available for break downs during the turn.

And the rule is what you quoted, the destroyed ones are "set aside", not placed in the force pool.
 
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Patrick Mullen
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petrip wrote:
I'd say you can only use battalions from the force pool, not ones which are "set aside"

I.e the battalions in the "NLF Eliminated Units" box in VASSAL are not available for break downs during the turn.

And the rule is what you quoted, the destroyed ones are "set aside", not placed in the force pool.


Disagree, Petri. It only says they are "set aside" for accounting purposes due to the potential effect on US Morale. There is no reasonable rationale the NLF player should be limited in any manner in breaking down regiments.
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Petri P
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Direct quote from the rules is:

"Destroyed and dispersed VC and NVA units should be kept separate from unused units and returned to the general pool only after their morale effect has been determined". (Page 32, upper left)

That morale effect is determined in the US Morale Adjustment Segment during the political phase. So, those VC and NVA units are returned to the general pool at that time.
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Curt Chambers

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I agree with Pat. 9.0 Breakdowns states "Any battalions not in play may be used." I would assert that a destroyed battalion is most definitely not in play.

BTW, hi Pat!
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Patrick Mullen
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Thanks, for finding the quote, Curt, I was too lazy to pull out the rulebook.

BTW, hi right back!

 
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craig grinnell
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Raindem wrote:
I agree with Pat. 9.0 Breakdowns states "Any battalions not in play may be used." I would assert that a destroyed battalion is most definitely not in play.

BTW, hi Pat!


Wouldn't it still technically be "in play" even if only for body count purposes?
it was created... killed... and is now dead, but still "in play" unlike a unit in the pool that hasn't been created yet.

Just stirring the pot a bit
 
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Patrick Mullen
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grinnell1969 wrote:
Raindem wrote:
I agree with Pat. 9.0 Breakdowns states "Any battalions not in play may be used." I would assert that a destroyed battalion is most definitely not in play.

BTW, hi Pat!


Wouldn't it still technically be "in play" even if only for body count purposes?
it was created... killed... and is now dead, but still "in play" unlike a unit in the pool that hasn't been created yet.

Just stirring the pot a bit


"In play" means on map. Forget the rules, that's just the use of the English language in context of the game. 😂
 
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Fred Buchholz
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Because we have a marker to count the battalions destroyed in Vassal I am going to play it as all the battalions go back to force pool if there is a break down of a regiment. Other wise a savvy VC player could realize he has say 3 "3 point" battalions left and break down a regiment to insure he gets two 3 strength battalions to carry on the fight (one would have to go for casualties)
This way its is more randomized.

BTW are the force pools always randomized every time you pull one out? There is no "automatic" shortcut to break down a VC regiment(i.e. get your 3 battalions)
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Patrick Mullen
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Dren608 wrote:


BTW are the force pools always randomized every time you pull one out? There is no "automatic" shortcut to break down a VC regiment(i.e. get your 3 battalions)


Once they are added to the pool in Vassal they are randomized.
 
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Bob A

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Dren608 wrote:
Reviving this thread instead of making a new one:
If you want to break down a regiment to 3 battalions do you include the "destroyed ones" from this season, I know the rules say they should be set aside (so they can be counted for possible morale boost at next interphase) but what if you have less than 3 battalions in the force pool but have say 20 in the "dead pool" (Pun intended go Deadpool!)ninja
Wouldn't you be allowed to use those? it then would follow they need to be in the random selection as well doesn't it?
What part of the rules am I not seeing this described in?


I think the question is actually moot. The only time you can break down the regiment is during phase 6C (VC breakdown segment) - which is after the morale adjustment segment and before the start of the game turn.

By normal game play, there simply are no eliminated units and all are either on the map board or in the force pool. If you don't have enough battalions then you just don't have any further capacity.
 
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Patrick Mullen
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mrboba1 wrote:
Dren608 wrote:
Reviving this thread instead of making a new one:
If you want to break down a regiment to 3 battalions do you include the "destroyed ones" from this season, I know the rules say they should be set aside (so they can be counted for possible morale boost at next interphase) but what if you have less than 3 battalions in the force pool but have say 20 in the "dead pool" (Pun intended go Deadpool!)ninja
Wouldn't you be allowed to use those? it then would follow they need to be in the random selection as well doesn't it?
What part of the rules am I not seeing this described in?


I think the question is actually moot. The only time you can break down the regiment is during phase 6C (VC breakdown segment) - which is after the morale adjustment segment and before the start of the game turn.

By normal game play, there simply are no eliminated units and all are either on the map board or in the force pool. If you don't have enough battalions then you just don't have any further capacity.


Bob, you can also break down a Regiment to take losses resulting from combat.
 
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Fred Buchholz
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Navaronegun wrote:
mrboba1 wrote:
Dren608 wrote:
Reviving this thread instead of making a new one:
If you want to break down a regiment to 3 battalions do you include the "destroyed ones" from this season, I know the rules say they should be set aside (so they can be counted for possible morale boost at next interphase) but what if you have less than 3 battalions in the force pool but have say 20 in the "dead pool" (Pun intended go Deadpool!)ninja
Wouldn't you be allowed to use those? it then would follow they need to be in the random selection as well doesn't it?
What part of the rules am I not seeing this described in?


I think the question is actually moot. The only time you can break down the regiment is during phase 6C (VC breakdown segment) - which is after the morale adjustment segment and before the start of the game turn.

By normal game play, there simply are no eliminated units and all are either on the map board or in the force pool. If you don't have enough battalions then you just don't have any further capacity.


Bob, you can also break down a Regiment to take losses resulting from combat.

Which is the situation I was in breakdown for losses, I ended up taking 5 replacements because the remaining Battalions would have probably been destroyed anyway based on the positioning on the map. (1 point loss but I had lost 4 replacements already so I netted 1 replacement but gave US +3 on the battalion dead count.
Thanks Pat about the auto randomizing if put in the force pool.
 
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Mark Evans
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Dren608 wrote:
Wouldn't you be allowed to use those? it then would follow they need to be in the random selection as well doesn't it?
What part of the rules am I not seeing this described in?


I have read through the arguments that people have put forward. I can see both sides of this. On one side it says "set aside until X..." The other side says the pool is "all unused pieces". I might mull this one over a bit. We have been playing (probably) that the dead pieces are set aside unless needed to form a pool, then we make a note of their loss and put them in the pool. This felt correct at the time and is probably what was intended.
 
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