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Subject: Thor question rss

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William
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During the crown Thor king of Asgard plot.
You are using the Manhattan Villians which includes Thor.

Does the Manhattan Thor escape during a plot twist?

And do all Thors leave the overrun pile and enter the bridge during a twist?
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Aaron Gray
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vikingbill71 wrote:
During the crown Thor king of Asgard plot.
You are using the Manhattan Villians which includes Thor.

Does the Manhattan Thor escape during a plot twist?

And do all Thors leave the overrun pile and enter the bridge during a twist?


With the introduction of Cross-Dimensional Rampage, which accounts for all different card types of a character, I would be inclined to say yes on this as well. I'll check the rules when I get home.
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Bert McCloud
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I'm also inclined to say yes but it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the plot. Can anyone quote it?
 
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Carnilius IV
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BertMcCloud wrote:
I'm also inclined to say yes but it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the plot. Can anyone quote it?


From: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243890/complete-card-text-...

Quote:
Crown Thor King of Asgard
Setup: 8 Twists. Put the Thor Adversary next to this Plot.
Twist: If Thor is in the city, he overruns. Otherwise, Thor enters the Bridge from wherever he is, and Thor guards 3 Bystanders.
Special Rules: Whenever Thor overruns, stack a Plot Twist from the KO pile next to this Plot as a "Triumph of Asgard."
Good Wins: When there are 3 Triumphs of Asgard next to this plot.
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Jeff P
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Keep in mind that the Manhattan Thor isn't a "Thor Adversary" since it's not an Adversary, it's a Villain. So it can be argued that the "Crown Thor King of Asgard" Plot Twist text does not apply to Manhattan Thor since that's not the Thor it's referencing.

That all said, I would consider it a "decide how you want to play it before you start the game" thing. Obviously there would be a bigger challenge if there are more Thors that can overrun. Decide what kind of challenge you're looking for when you set the game up and then just play it that way.

If this were a tournament, whatever ruling used would likely be announced before the event started, and it would be up to the TO/head judge to decide how much of a challenge they want to put their players through. Or, they'd just avoid using this Plot in combination with Manhattan Thor Villains just to be safe.
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Sean Riley
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JeffP300 wrote:
Keep in mind that the Manhattan Thor isn't a "Thor Adversary" since it's not an Adversary, it's a Villain. So it can be argued that the "Crown Thor King of Asgard" Plot Twist text does not apply to Manhattan Thor since that's not the Thor it's referencing.

That all said, I would consider it a "decide how you want to play it before you start the game" thing. Obviously there would be a bigger challenge if there are more Thors that can overrun. Decide what kind of challenge you're looking for when you set the game up and then just play it that way.

If this were a tournament, whatever ruling used would likely be announced before the event started, and it would be up to the TO/head judge to decide how much of a challenge they want to put their players through. Or, they'd just avoid using this Plot in combination with Manhattan Thor Villains just to be safe.


I feel a little intimidated arguing this point now, but I am going to do it anyway...

Villains rules state that the terms "Adversary" and "Villain" are completely equivalent.

The scheme states "If Thor is in the city", well, in this case, Thor is in the city.

I am not saying you could do this at a tournament, but this would be my ruling at my table

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Carnilius IV
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This is an interesting question. There are several ways that Thor can be in the City, and I wonder how this applies to those scenarios. Hero Thor (or Lady Thor) can be captured by a Villain, like Dracula or a Skrull, so while they are not Villains or Adversaries, they are still in the City. Thor Corps count as Thor for purposes of Cross Dimensional Thor Rampage, so are they Thor, too? You could lose pretty fast if you get a Scheme Twist with three Thor Corps in the city (though I guess you need to have enough Scheme Twists in the KO pile for it to work).
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Aaron Gray
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JeffP300 wrote:
Keep in mind that the Manhattan Thor isn't a "Thor Adversary" since it's not an Adversary, it's a Villain. So it can be argued that the "Crown Thor King of Asgard" Plot Twist text does not apply to Manhattan Thor since that's not the Thor it's referencing.


That makes sense, then. It specifically says "Thor Adversary". That said, in the villains rulebook, it does say to treat the term "villain" and "adversary" as the same, just as it equates many other card types. Manhattan Thor and Thor Corps do start out as villains by term. I can see where there would be confusion because of that, but you're the rep, so I'll take your word for it.
 
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Carnilius IV
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Upon further thought, it would be chaotic to have this refer to "any" Thor. The scheme says that Thor enters the Bridge "from wherever he is". If this did not only refer to the specific Adversary Thor, then that would imply that you would have to search the Villain Deck for all Thor Villains and search the Hero Deck for all Thor Heroes, and all of them would enter the bridge. That wouldn't make sense.
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Jeff P
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az933k wrote:

I feel a little intimidated arguing this point now, but I am going to do it anyway...
Villains rules state that the terms "Adversary" and "Villain" are completely equivalent.
The scheme states "If Thor is in the city", well, in this case, Thor is in the city.
I am not saying you could do this at a tournament, but this would be my ruling at my table


BuddhaRock wrote:

That makes sense, then. It specifically says "Thor Adversary". That said, in the villains rulebook, it does say to treat the term "villain" and "adversary" as the same, just as it equates many other card types. Manhattan Thor and Thor Corps do start out as villains by term. I can see where there would be confusion because of that, but you're the rep, so I'll take your word for it.


It's more the intent than the wording, I'd argue. The Plot was developed at a time when there was only one Thor Villain/Adversary in total in all of Legendary. By making the "Thor" in the Plot now refer to multiple different Thors at once, you're changing the intended setup and difficulty. That's not to say you cannot do that, but as I said before, you should make it clear before you start to the rest of the players that you're going to try it out using two Thors instead of the sole Thor that the Plot was designed with in mind, and as a result the game might be either more or less difficult than it otherwise would have been.

If running a setup like that sounds fun, I definitely say go for it. Having fun is what it's all about, and a large part of the fun of Legendary is trying out all sorts of weird Mastermind/Scheme/Villain/Hero combinations for no other reason than it sounds fun and you want to see what will happen. Just make you're you're transparent with your players with what you're doing with the setup, and how it will be ruled should a multiple Thor situation arise. I'd say that the worst thing you can do it just spring it on the playgroup at the time it happens. Let them know what's happening ahead of time.

It's also an advantage that in a game like Legendary, you control the setup. It's not like a trading card game where each player brings their own deck, and you have no idea what off-the-wall seldom-used cards your opponent is using. As a result, you know that a situation like this is likely as soon as you construct the Villain deck, so you can be prepared for it.
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Greg Schuette
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I think an argument can be made that it only applies to the one card. The cards set-up rules says to place the Thor Adversary aside. So I think from then on Thor Adversary can be treated as a Proper Noun applying to that specific card for the rest of the text in the Scheme.
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Richie Tran
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It was my understanding that it the plot uses the Thor from the Avengers adversary deck. Doesn't it also say that in the rules about doing his ambush ability everything he re-enters the city?
 
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Jem
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carnilius wrote:
This is an interesting question. There are several ways that Thor can be in the City, and I wonder how this applies to those scenarios. Hero Thor (or Lady Thor) can be captured by a Villain, like Dracula or a Skrull, so while they are not Villains or Adversaries, they are still in the City. Thor Corps count as Thor for purposes of Cross Dimensional Thor Rampage, so are they Thor, too? You could lose pretty fast if you get a Scheme Twist with three Thor Corps in the city (though I guess you need to have enough Scheme Twists in the KO pile for it to work).

I'd assume that a Thor hero card behind a villain such as Dracula isn't really in-play or in the city.

If nothing else, there's no mechanic for removing a hero card without defeating the villain in question, so do you have the Dracula/Skrull escape or do you replace the hero card? I'd work on the basis that it doesn't really "exist" in game until the villain is defeated.
 
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Bert McCloud
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I think based on the above discussion I would completely agree with the way Jeff explains it. It's quite clear that the intention was for it to apply only to the one specific version of Thor; also due to it specifically setting aside Thor, it's quite clear that it's that specific Thor that is being referenced.

BUT obviously it would be very easy to just rule it either way for your own specific games just to make it a little different based on your group's preference.
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William
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carnilius wrote:
BertMcCloud wrote:
I'm also inclined to say yes but it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the plot. Can anyone quote it?


From: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243890/complete-card-text-...

Quote:
Crown Thor King of Asgard
Setup: 8 Twists. Put the Thor Adversary next to this Plot.
Twist: If Thor is in the city, he overruns. Otherwise, Thor enters the Bridge from wherever he is, and Thor guards 3 Bystanders.
Special Rules: Whenever Thor overruns, stack a Plot Twist from the KO pile next to this Plot as a "Triumph of Asgard."
Good Wins: When there are 3 Triumphs of Asgard next to this plot.


Thank You everyone

Based upon the above feedback, I've decided to house rule it like this:

Setup will only refer to the Thor Adversary from the Avengers adversary group. (As intended)

The Twist will be divided into 2 parts

1. If any Villian/Adversary Thor (not Hero or henchman/backup) is in the City, he overruns/escapes. At this point that would only mean Avengers or Manhattan (Ultimate) Thor. Stack a Triumph card next to the plot for each.

2. If step 1 does not cause a Thor to overrun or escape, then the "otherwise" on the plot will kick in. The "intended" Thor (Avengers) will enter the bridge from wherever he is. ("Entering the bridge" will only apply to the Avengers version of Thor)

In this event, I'm trying to do as much of the plot twist as possible without breaking the game.

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M S
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carnilius wrote:
Upon further thought, it would be chaotic to have this refer to "any" Thor. The scheme says that Thor enters the Bridge "from wherever he is". If this did not only refer to the specific Adversary Thor, then that would imply that you would have to search the Villain Deck for all Thor Villains and search the Hero Deck for all Thor Heroes, and all of them would enter the bridge. That wouldn't make sense.


And don't forget to slap all the Thors in your hand/HQ/Lair/Hero Deck/Ally Deck down there as well.
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Jem
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rogue148 wrote:
carnilius wrote:
Upon further thought, it would be chaotic to have this refer to "any" Thor. The scheme says that Thor enters the Bridge "from wherever he is". If this did not only refer to the specific Adversary Thor, then that would imply that you would have to search the Villain Deck for all Thor Villains and search the Hero Deck for all Thor Heroes, and all of them would enter the bridge. That wouldn't make sense.


And don't forget to slap all the Thors in your hand/HQ/Lair/Hero Deck/Ally Deck down there as well.

What about the ones in the box? Also action figures you own. Or don't even own. Also Chris Hemsworth. Where is he anyway?
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Sean Riley
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Jemjar wrote:
rogue148 wrote:
carnilius wrote:
Upon further thought, it would be chaotic to have this refer to "any" Thor. The scheme says that Thor enters the Bridge "from wherever he is". If this did not only refer to the specific Adversary Thor, then that would imply that you would have to search the Villain Deck for all Thor Villains and search the Hero Deck for all Thor Heroes, and all of them would enter the bridge. That wouldn't make sense.


And don't forget to slap all the Thors in your hand/HQ/Lair/Hero Deck/Ally Deck down there as well.

What about the ones in the box? Also action figures you own. Or don't even own. Also Chris Hemsworth. Where is he anyway?


Best response.

"Hold on guys, I need to get my Thor Blu-ray to put in the city"
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