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Subject: Die Trigger: Event! E44.1 Veteran Marker rss

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My opponent is resolving a Fire Power Attack when the Die Trigger: Event! E44.1 Veteran Marker comes up. Naturally, the marker is placed on the unit that is acting as the Fire Group's base in the attack. Does the FP Attack final total now go up by 1 FP point before moving on to the Fire Defense Roll?

Rule 1.9.1 Die Triggers states that play is paused while the trigger is resolved before continuing the game, so, I guess that the bonus of the Veteran Marker would apply to the FP final total. Is this correct? (Note: Die Trigger: Jammed is specifically mentioned/excepted for not affecting the final FP total.)
 
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David desJardins
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I think I may have answered a similar question wrong, before. I'm quite sure the answer is that the FP is not adjusted. Rule O20.3.3 says, "Once the final FP is determined, the firing player makes a roll." Thus, you have determined the FP for the shot before the attacker makes the Fire Attack Roll. If the Fire Attack Roll causes a trigger that changes the conditions of the shot, that doesn't retroactively change the final FP, because that has already been determined.

Even if the trigger on the Fire Attack Roll had the effect of eliminating the firing unit, the Fire Attack would still be completed, with the same FP that has already been computed.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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Agree w/ David. This situation came up in one of my games today and Kai explained it the same way. Once the FP is calculated (and the roll made) - that activity is over. The event takes place, but doesn't impact/modify the already made roll.
 
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RPardoe wrote:
Once the FP is calculated (and the roll made) - that activity is over. The event takes place, but doesn't impact/modify the already made roll.


Especially true when you consider that a counter has been included in the game so that you can mark the FP total while you pause to resolve any triggers.
 
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Eric Landes
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philfry wrote:
RPardoe wrote:
Once the FP is calculated (and the roll made) - that activity is over. The event takes place, but doesn't impact/modify the already made roll.


Especially true when you consider that a counter has been included in the game so that you can mark the FP total while you pause to resolve any triggers.


And OH is that counter ever useful... Had my first game of this today, and we had a fire attack generate an event AND a time trigger due to the deck running out. After resolving that it was a "what were we doing?" moment and the attack value counter came to our rescue.
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Dan Poole
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The same logic applies to Jammed results. Even though the weapon breaks, the firepower for the current attack remains unchanged.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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FYI - Just noticed (after reading the FAQ for the first time), a similar situation is discussed for Q20.3.3 where a fire attack draws a Time! trigger and smoke that had hindered the shot is the smoke removed as part of the Time! trigger....(my emphasis)

Quote:
The Smoke had alread been taken into account by reducing the FP of the firing pieces prior to the roll that caused the trigger. Do not retroactively add FP back in once the Fire Attack Roll is made.

Consistent with the comments posted here also. Do not go back and adjust FP once determined.
 
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David desJardins
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I'm a little less sure what happens with ordnance, if there is a trigger from the targeting roll. E.g., suppose I make a targeting roll for my mortar, and on the (successful) targeting roll, there is a trigger that creates smoke in the target hex. Do I then take that smoke into account when computing the FP total for the fire attack?

I think the answer is yes, because the sequence in O20 suggests that first the targeting procedure of O20.2 is performed, then the fire attack procedure of O20.3. So I don't compute the FP total for the attack until after completing the targeting roll.

But I'm not sure of this.

This raises further questions. If the smoke reduces the FP total to less than 1, do I not make the fire attack roll at all? (Even though the targeting roll was successful?) Or, suppose the targeting roll triggers an event that breaks my firing unit. Since the broken unit can't operate the weapon, does that mean I skip the fire attack roll?
 
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
I'm a little less sure what happens with ordnance, if there is a trigger from the targeting roll. E.g., suppose I make a targeting roll for my mortar, and on the (successful) targeting roll, there is a trigger that creates smoke in the target hex. Do I then take that smoke into account when computing the FP total for the fire attack?


No. Hindrances don't affect the FP of Ordnance, only its Targeting Roll. This is covered in rule O20.2.3, second paragraph, as well as in rule 10.3.1.
 
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David desJardins
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Chad Jensen wrote:
No. Hindrances don't affect the FP of Ordnance, only its Targeting Roll. This is covered in rule O20.2.3, second paragraph, as well as in rule 10.3.1.


Wow! I always wondered why flamethrowers were affected by smoke on both the targeting and fire attack roll. Now I find out they aren't. Very sensible. And it makes flamethrowers, mortars, infantry guns, etc., much more useful, when smoke is present. (Although I'm not sure the flamethrowers needed it!)

But, this isn't mentioned at all in O20.2.3 (or O20.3.2). It's only in 10.3.1. I never thought to look there, when going through the ordnance sequence. I think this is a point that will be often missed.

And I'm still curious what happens if a trigger from my targeting roll causes my firing unit to break, or to be suppressed, or the firing weapon to break, or wire to appear in the firing hex, or my firing unit to be moved to a new hex with no line of sight to the target, etc.? Anything that would keep it from taking the shot.

(My guess, now, is that it's just resolved normally, even if the unit/weapon could no longer take that shot.)
 
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
But, this isn't mentioned at all in O20.2.3 (or O20.3.2). It's only in 10.3.1. I never thought to look there, when going through the ordnance sequence. I think this is a point that will be often missed.


Um, yes it is: in the second paragraph of rule O20.2.3 - which even lists the relevant rules reference of 10.3.1 at the end of the sentence.

Quote:
And I'm still curious what happens if a trigger from my targeting roll causes my firing unit to break, or to be suppressed, or the firing weapon to break, or wire to appear in the firing hex, or my firing unit to be moved to a new hex with no line of sight to the target, etc.? Anything that would keep it from taking the shot.


Then the attack continues: Rule O20.2 states "...to see if the Weapon hits and, if so, a Fire Attack Roll is then made...." So if Ordnance "hits", that player proceeds directly to the Attack Roll (rule O20.3.3). The examples you cite above would have to have been in effect from before the Targeting Roll is made for them to have any detrimental effect on the Fire Attack as a whole.
 
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David desJardins
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Um, yes it is: in the second paragraph of rule O20.2.3 - which even lists the relevant rules reference of 10.3.1 at the end of the sentence.


It does say in O20.2.3 that the hindrance modifies the targeting roll. It doesn't say in O20.2.3 that the hindrance doesn't modify the FP as well. I can see, re-reading it now, that this was the intent. O20.2 does say to make a Fire Attack Roll "using that Weapon's FP" (i.e., this suggests omitting any modifier for a hindrance).

Does ordnance get -1 FP if firing to a higher elevation?
 
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David desJardins
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Then the attack continues: Rule O20.2 states "...to see if the Weapon hits and, if so, a Fire Attack Roll is then made...." So if Ordnance "hits", that player proceeds directly to the Attack Roll (rule O20.3.3). The examples you cite above would have to have been in effect from before the Targeting Roll is made for them to have any detrimental effect on the Fire Attack as a whole.


Suppose that I make a successful targeting roll against a hex with an ordnance attack, but, as a result of a trigger caused by my targeting roll, the enemy units in the target hex are eliminated. Do I still make the fire attack roll, even though there's nothing there to attack? From what you say above, I would say yes.

Going even further, suppose that I make a successful targeting roll, and, as a result of a trigger caused by my targeting roll, the enemy units in the target hex are replaced by friendly units. (E.g., my targeting roll triggers a Time event, the time event makes reinforcements available to me, I choose to place my reinforcements in the target hex, and I win the ensuing melee.) Then do I still make a fire attack against my own units? Do my units have to make defense rolls, against my own attack? A literal reading of O20.3.4 would say yes.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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Quote:
the enemy units in the target hex are eliminated

O20.3 (First Paragraph)...unless firing Smoke, there must be at least one enemy unit in a targeted hex for the shot to occur

Enemy eliminated, no shot occurs.

Quote:
I choose to place my reinforcements in the target hex, and I win the ensuing melee

I thought reinforcements were deployed into a friendly hex. A hex with enemy units isn't friendly, so how do you reinforce into the target hex (and force melee)?

 
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David desJardins
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RPardoe wrote:
I thought reinforcements were deployed into a friendly hex.


Nope. Any hex on the friendly board edge. E68 even explicitly mentions that a melee can occur as a result. You can also create a melee by deploying reinforcements that come off of the time track, although it's not explicitly stated in rule 6.1.2.
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Richard Pardoe
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Mea Culpa - I was reading this as "friendly hex along your edge" thereby breaking the cardinal rule of infering and imagining more than the rules state.

But the point remains - ordnance shot only goes off if an enemy unit is in the hex...so no shot in that case either.
 
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David desJardins
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RPardoe wrote:
Mea Culpa - I was reading this as "friendly hex along your edge" thereby breaking the cardinal rule of infering and imagining more than the rules state.


That would be pretty restrictive! Most often, there would be no friendly hexes along your edge, so you couldn't bring in reinforcements at all.

Quote:
But the point remains - ordnance shot only goes off if an enemy unit is in the hex...so no shot in that case either.


Well, that's an interpretation. I'm still curious what Chad thinks. Your interpretation seems more or less inconsistent with Chad's observation that O20.2 says to follow a successful Targeting Roll immediately with a Fire Attack Roll. I think the quoted statement in O20.3 only requires an enemy unit in the target hex at the time you initiate the attack.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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Agree....

Did have a situation this past weekend where Artillery had drifted away from all units (hitting 7 empty hexes). Chad told us for that situation - no need to make fire attacks against those empty hexes. Am suspecting something along those lines here also. Hopefully Chad (or Kai) will chime up soon.
 
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David desJardins
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RPardoe wrote:
Did have a situation this past weekend where Artillery had drifted away from all units (hitting 7 empty hexes). Chad told us for that situation - no need to make fire attacks against those empty hexes.


Yes, that's in the artillery rules (O18.2.3.2). And, if you did have multiple target hexes in the impact area, and you rolled against one of them, and a side-effect of a trigger on the first roll eliminated all units from another hex in the impact area, then you would not roll against that now-empty hex.

I do think that, if you rolled for artillery impact against one hex, and, as a result of a trigger, a unit (friendly or enemy) appeared in a different hex within the impact area, then you would go ahead and make a roll against that new unit, too. O18.2.3.2 doesn't say that you only roll against hexes that are occupied at the time of the accuracy roll. But I could be wrong on that.
 
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Chad Jensen
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Quote:
Suppose that I make a successful targeting roll against a hex with an ordnance attack, but, as a result of a trigger caused by my targeting roll, the enemy units in the target hex are eliminated. Do I still make the fire attack roll, even though there's nothing there to attack? From what you say above, I would say yes.


No. O20.3 states that if there is no enemy unit in the targeted hex than no Fire Attack is made against it.

Quote:
Going even further, suppose that I make a successful targeting roll, and, as a result of a trigger caused by my targeting roll, the enemy units in the target hex are replaced by friendly units. (E.g., my targeting roll triggers a Time event, the time event makes reinforcements available to me, I choose to place my reinforcements in the target hex, and I win the ensuing melee.) Then do I still make a fire attack against my own units? Do my units have to make defense rolls, against my own attack? A literal reading of O20.3.4 would say yes.


I would call you an idiot for purposefully putting friendly units into a hex that you just targeted with Ordnance. And then say "yes, you must now destroy your own units".

David: are you asking absurd hypothetical questions just for the sake of trying to prove that something in CC is broken? Are you errata hunting?
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David desJardins
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Chad Jensen wrote:
David: are you asking absurd hypothetical questions just for the sake of trying to prove that something in CC is broken? Are you errata hunting?


I don't actually think that particular situation is so absurd. I can imagine a situation where I'm targeting an enemy unit or units that I really want/need to destroy. (Maybe, I'm trying to stop it from exiting to score exit VPs, which would explain why it's on the friendly map edge.) And then, when I (perhaps unexpectedly) get the chance to engage it with reinforcements, I want to take advantage of that. I might do it whether or not my units would be subject to friendly fire, although, it would be nice to know what the answer is, and it might be that I would only engage if I knew that I wouldn't be subject to my own fire attack, if I did win.

The same thing could happen by Infiltration, even if the target isn't on the friendly map edge.

But, more generally, I'm just curious about odd situations that can theoretically arise. It's just my nature. I don't think there's any element of criticism in that. The CC:E rules are among the best I've ever seen, in a wargame.
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