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Subject: Suggestion for next edition board layout: change the scoring track rss

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Timo Aho
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I think the scoring part of the board should be changed. 1's and 10's are now tracked separately, which is annoying to read and difficult to use without any mistakes. A traditional VP track is much much better, and there's more than enough space for it.

When using plastic tokens, you could make a traditional track where a single plastic token (political token would be better imo) would fit. OR you could do larger squares where multiple tokens would fit.

a) 0-99


b) 0-63 (even number would obviously be better)


c) You could also do a "snake" instead of always going from left to right.

d) One last option, and probably the best one, would be to have the scoring track run as a frame on the outside border. There's a reason why most games do it like that.

Anyways, not a big deal but something to consider. The game is awesome even with an annoying scoring tracker
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The VP's don't need to be tracked in real time like in most games. The raw score is pretty meaningless, and the differential in scores only matters at the end of the game.

I've been using the scoring track to store counters and game components.
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Timo Aho
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FuManchu wrote:
The VP's don't need to be tracked in real time like in most games. The raw score is pretty meaningless, and the differential in scores only matters at the end of the game.

I've been using the scoring track to store counters and game components.

Sure, but with this kind of scoring, isn't it crucial to know the situation at all times?

Veterans might be able to see the big picture simply by looking at the board, but for newbies it will be very difficult to see who is winning and who is losing.

Yesterday when we played Churchill, after finishing setup, we calculated all VP's (+-8 for everyone). Then during the game we kept track of the score in real time. Sure, it adds some bookkeeping, but I liked this approach because I didn't have to do math in my head 24/7 and there weren't no big surprises at the end.
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Mark
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I like surprises at the end.
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Timo Aho
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Who doesn't, but the thing is that there is no hidden information (assuming you are not using the secret agenda variant) in Churchill. So the only person who will be surprised is the newbie who didn't constantly count the score in his head.

Not keeping the score in games makes sense when it's a casual game like Ticket to Ride or whatever. But in Churchill with its elaborate scoring and winning conditions, nothing is more important than knowing the score at all times. I mean you would need tons of luck to win if you were the only person who didn't know the score and was just waiting for the big surprise. To me that would ruin the whole game completely.
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Jim Allard
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NoppaGames wrote:

... But in Churchill with its elaborate scoring and winning conditions, nothing is more important than knowing the score at all times. ...


I'm pretty sure that Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt did not know the score at any point in time.

JimA
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Mark Herman
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NoppaGames wrote:
I think the scoring part of the board should be changed. 1's and 10's are now tracked separately, which is annoying to read and difficult to use without any mistakes. A traditional VP track is much much better, and there's more than enough space for it.

When using plastic tokens, you could make a traditional track where a single plastic token (political token would be better imo) would fit. OR you could do larger squares where multiple tokens would fit.

a) 0-99


b) 0-63 (even number would obviously be better)


c) You could also do a "snake" instead of always going from left to right.

d) One last option, and probably the best one, would be to have the scoring track run as a frame on the outside border. There's a reason why most games do it like that.

Anyways, not a big deal but something to consider. The game is awesome even with an annoying scoring tracker


Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. For the type of precision I think you are looking for take a look at this spreadsheet scoring file for Churchill. As it allows for real time scoring and is very easy to use.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/122041/excel-scoreshe...

Again thank you for taking the time to develop this concept for the game.

Mark
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Rex Stites
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I think the issue is more that is easy to overlook a play that has an effect on the scoring, so you're always left in doubt and have to recalculate from scratch any way. If it were a game where the VPs weren't calculable from the game-state at any given time, then the proposed change would make more sense. But as it is, it seems 6 one way, half a dozen the other.
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Jason Sherlock
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The big problem that we have is that the layout of the 10's and 1's are counter intuitive. We keep accidentally moving the maker ion the 10 track when we should be moving the 1 marker.
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A P
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I have already done this with my scoring track. That is, I printed out a similar grid and just taped it over that space. The separate 1s and 10s track is not user friendly.

We generally track score every other turn. This is particularly helpful with new players to benchmark their game play.
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Don Smith
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Whether you use the scoring track or not, I completely agree with Timo - the design of the scoring track is abysmal and almost dysfunctional.

Eurogamers would be appalled by the fact they have to track 1's and 10's - that's from the "stone age" of game layout.

Make sure it's changed in the re-print.

Great game!
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Don Smith wrote:
Eurogamers would be appalled by the fact they have to track 1's and 10's - that's from the "stone age" of game layout.

But not, of course, from the game layout of Stone Age.
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MarkHerman wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. For the type of precision I think you are looking for take a look at this spreadsheet scoring file for Churchill. As it allows for real time scoring and is very easy to use.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/122041/excel-scoreshe...

Again thank you for taking the time to develop this concept for the game.

Mark

Thanks for the link, and more importantly, thanks for the game! It's easily one of the best I've ever played.

The spreadsheet is neat, but I personally like to have as little technology on my game table as possible. So constantly updating a spreadsheet does not sound too good to me. I could see myself using that spreadsheet at the end of the game to confirm the score though. I'll have to test it.

rstites25 wrote:
I think the issue is more that is easy to overlook a play that has an effect on the scoring, so you're always left in doubt and have to recalculate from scratch any way. If it were a game where the VPs weren't calculable from the game-state at any given time, then the proposed change would make more sense. But as it is, it seems 6 one way, half a dozen the other.

Makes sense. But I have to say that keeping a running score was actually pretty easy. I thought it would have been more difficult but we managed to do it without any mistakes. Most difficult part was remembering the 2VP to the British for each blank colony. But yeah, I get your point.

jackalope wrote:
The big problem that we have is that the layout of the 10's and 1's are counter intuitive. We keep accidentally moving the maker ion the 10 track when we should be moving the 1 marker.

Exactly. This is the #1 reason why I wanted to redo the track.

Melric wrote:
We generally track score every other turn. This is particularly helpful with new players to benchmark their game play.

Yes, that could work too if real-time scoring was too fiddly.

----------

Here's a track I made and printed. It uses the same exact background as the original one and I think I even managed to find the same font (Myriad?). It's also the same exact size.

As a bonus I added flags. These show the tournament scenario starting score of each side if the game ended right after setup. I will also use Political makers instead of the Clandestine markers suggested in the rulebook.



After a test, I'll probably add it to the files section in case someone else would be interested in this.
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Aaron Cappocchi
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NoppaGames wrote:

After a test, I'll probably add it to the files section in case someone else would be interested in this.


Yes please. I'll be printing it and pasting it on to my board, assuming it sizes correctly.
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Don Smith wrote:
Whether you use the scoring track or not, I completely agree with Timo - the design of the scoring track is abysmal and almost dysfunctional.

Eurogamers would be appalled by the fact they have to track 1's and 10's - that's from the "stone age" of game layout.

Make sure it's changed in the re-print.

Great game!


Are you a Eurogamer? Are you appalled?

I am not aware that Churchill is making any inroads into the Euro market, nor do I expect it to as the topic ultimately is about conflict and it cannot be easily characterized by the use of any traditional mechanic (e.g., worker placement, tile placement, etc.).

For what its worth,

Mark

PS: Any track you create needs to go above 63 as I have had many games with scores around 70+.

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MarkHerman wrote:
Don Smith wrote:
Whether you use the scoring track or not, I completely agree with Timo - the design of the scoring track is abysmal and almost dysfunctional.

Eurogamers would be appalled by the fact they have to track 1's and 10's - that's from the "stone age" of game layout.

Make sure it's changed in the re-print.

Great game!


Are you a Eurogamer? Are you appalled?

I am not aware that Churchill is making any inroads into the Euro market, nor do I expect it to as the topic ultimately is about conflict and it cannot be easily characterized by the use of any traditional mechanic (e.g., worker placement, tile placement, etc.).

For what its worth,

Mark

PS: Any track you create needs to go above 63 as I have had many games with scores around 70+.



I'm a euro gamer who bought Churchill, FYI.

I already owned Twilight Struggle (a well known crossover) and recently got a copy of Andean Abyss after playing Fire in the Lake (another euro crossover).

So anyway, just saying, this is my first GMT P500 of a ... not war game, but... war game adjacent game.

My game collection is nearly 300 (mostly) euro games.

(I have not yet played Churchill though and don't yet have an opinion on the score track)
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Good to know... thanks. Here is some GG.
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FuManchu wrote:
The VP's don't need to be tracked in real time like in most games. The raw score is pretty meaningless, and the differential in scores only matters at the end of the game.

I've been using the scoring track to store counters and game components.


Every party needs a pooper . . . .

goo
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Don Smith wrote:
Whether you use the scoring track or not, I completely agree with Timo - the design of the scoring track is abysmal and almost dysfunctional.

Eurogamers would be appalled by the fact they have to track 1's and 10's - that's from the "stone age" of game layout.

Make sure it's changed in the re-print.

Great game!


Most wargamers come from the Stone Age, live and breathe in the Stone Age. It's who we are. robot

goo
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Don Smith
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MarkHerman wrote:
Don Smith wrote:
Whether you use the scoring track or not, I completely agree with Timo - the design of the scoring track is abysmal and almost dysfunctional.

Eurogamers would be appalled by the fact they have to track 1's and 10's - that's from the "stone age" of game layout.

Make sure it's changed in the re-print.

Great game!


Are you a Eurogamer? Are you appalled?

I am not aware that Churchill is making any inroads into the Euro market, nor do I expect it to as the topic ultimately is about conflict and it cannot be easily characterized by the use of any traditional mechanic (e.g., worker placement, tile placement, etc.).

For what its worth,

Mark

PS: Any track you create needs to go above 63 as I have had many games with scores around 70+.



Ummm. No. My first S&T subscription was Winter War in 1970!

I play hundreds of games of all types and Timo's post is merely pointing out that the VP track in Churchill is archaic. I agree.

I own nearly all your games, Mark, and the preferences of contemporary gamers are more nuanced than you appear to believe.

Keep designing great games but try not to be so dismissive of constructive criticism of a simple board layout design decision.
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Don, it was a joke, note the laughing emoticon.

I appreciate the support and I take no negatives out of this. I told The artist I needed a scoring track, no playtesters commented, it stayed that way. Always room for improvement.
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Don Smith
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MarkHerman wrote:
Don, it was a joke, note the laughing emoticon.

I appreciate the support and I take no negatives out of this. I told The artist I needed a scoring track, no playtesters commented, it stayed that way. Always room for improvement.


Ok. I'll buy your next few games. Pax.
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Don Smith wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
Don, it was a joke, note the laughing emoticon.

I appreciate the support and I take no negatives out of this. I told The artist I needed a scoring track, no playtesters commented, it stayed that way. Always room for improvement.


Ok. I'll buy your next few games. Pax.


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MarkHerman wrote:
PS: Any track you create needs to go above 63 as I have had many games with scores around 70+.

Thanks for the information.

After some consideration, I decided to make the scoring track go from 1 to 50. There are two reasons for that:

1. As far as I understand, most tournament scenario scores are around 40-50. If I made the track go up to 100, squares would be much smaller and most space on the track was never used.

2. Track of 0-49 points is kind of annoying when you get 49+ points. 1-50 is better because it's easy to start over from 1 and add your new score to that original 50. I figured that for 1-50 I will use the political marker, and for 51+ I will use a Political marker with a Clandestine marker beneath it. You could also start with Clandestine marker and then add a Political one when you go 51+.

Here is the finished track: https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/123964/churchill-alternat...

When printed without any scaling and using the correct paper size, it should align perfectly on the Churchill game board. I did it myself and it worked like a charm.

To save time when using a running score during tournament scenario, I included the starting score position of each power. This includes all scoring steps like colonies, A-bomb, etc.

I think I made this whole thing a much bigger project than it should have been but what is done is done.
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Jim Allard
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Why wouldn't you just have a label on the back of the token with a +50. Flip the token when you go past 50. Voila, scoring up to 99..

JimA
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