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Subject: Kim Davis and her ilk have lost the Mormons rss

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J
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Despite its deep opposition to same-sex marriage, the Mormon Church is setting itself apart from religious conservatives who rallied behind a Kentucky county clerk, Kim Davis, who cited her religious beliefs as justification for refusing to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

In a speech this week about the boundaries between church and state, Dallin Oaks, a high-ranking apostle in the church, said that public officials like Ms. Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, Ky., had a duty to follow the law, despite their religious convictions.

“Office holders remain free to draw upon their personal beliefs and motivations and advocate their positions in the public square,” Elder Oaks said. “But when acting as public officials, they are not free to apply personal convictions, religious or other, in place of the defined responsibilities of their public offices. All government officers should exercise their civil authority according to the principles and within the limits of civil government.”

Referring to Ms. Davis without naming her, Elder Oaks said: “A county clerk’s recent invoking of religious reasons to justify refusal by her office and staff to issue marriage licenses to same-gender couples violates this principle.”

They still oppose same sex marriage, but in a way that I can respect. Too bad other Faiths can't be as reasonable.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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In the 1830s, when Joseph Smith was asked what members of the church believed, one of the 13 points of doctrine he outlined was this:

12) We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Nice to see that consistency all these years later.

Also, Kim Davis is dumb.
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Andre
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Her case will be squashed, it has no merits. When it does, she'll still be crying foul. She is not forced to be employed at that specific job, with those specific duties. If she does not like the duties, resign from the job, it's that simple. Although she did not start that job with the duty to issue gay marriage licenses, that job was given to her by legislative and/or court decision. If she doesn't want to uphold her job responsibility at that point, she can go work in the private sector, where she can observe her religion to her hearts content. This whole case is a farce, and other than obtaining publicity for one's name, I cannot believe there is a lawyer foolish enough to represent her. But apparently there is one.
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Kim Davis and her ilk never had the Mormons to begin with.

Considering his commentary is on the law, it's important to note that Dallin H. Oaks actually is a lawyer. Before retiring to become an apostle, he clerked for the US Supreme Court, taught law at the University of Chicago Law School, and served as a justice on the Utah Supreme Court.
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Trey Stone
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jmilum wrote:

They still oppose same sex marriage, but in a way that I can respect. Too bad other Faiths can't be as reasonable.


I assume you "respect" the folks at Nurenberg who said "we were just following orders."
 
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J
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Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...
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Trey Stone
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jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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CapNClassic wrote:
Private employers/employees should be free to discriminate.


In the privacy of their own private homes they can. When they enter the public space, enjoy public protections and public infrastructure then they have to play by the public rules.
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Pontifex Maximus
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tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.



Equating giving citizens the right to marry to sending people to death camps is fairly insane, even by your standards. Are you actually a double agent/atheist trying to discredit the religious right? That is the only thing explaining this statement
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Kumitedad wrote:
tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.


Are you actually a double agent/atheist trying to discredit the religious right? That is the only thing explaining this statement


I have often considered that, given the slightly south parky name
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J
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tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.

no, we don't agree. if she didn't want to do the job, she should quit.
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Junior McSpiffy
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TheChin! wrote:
CapNClassic wrote:
Private employers/employees should be free to discriminate.


In the privacy of their own private homes they can. When they enter the public space, enjoy public protections and public infrastructure then they have to play by the public rules.


I look at it like Kremlin. People come and people go. They move up and down the pecking order. They sometimes get stuffed into the Kremlin Wall, but that's probably not pertinent here. The point is, the people move in and out, but the function of the office remains the same. So if a person who is a white supremacist or a Fortyniners fan takes office, the utter disgusting nature of their personal beliefs should not hold sway. What matters is, can they do the job? The function of the office is X. If a person cannot or will not do X, then they shouldn't be in the job.
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Mac Mcleod
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tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:

They still oppose same sex marriage, but in a way that I can respect. Too bad other Faiths can't be as reasonable.


I assume you "respect" the folks at Nurenberg who said "we were just following orders."


I was sitting there thinking the same thing. Letting two people of the same sex who have lived together for 10 years having sex already to also get married so they can visit each other in the hospital, share the many tax and legal advantage of other married couples and say, "why yes, we are married!" is directly equivalent to mass murdering people, turning their skin into lamp shades, performing murderous experimentation on twin children, and killing six million people in a gas chamber.

Kim needs to stand fast!
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Boaty McBoatface
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jmilum wrote:
Quote:
Despite its deep opposition to same-sex marriage, the Mormon Church is setting itself apart from religious conservatives who rallied behind a Kentucky county clerk, Kim Davis, who cited her religious beliefs as justification for refusing to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

In a speech this week about the boundaries between church and state, Dallin Oaks, a high-ranking apostle in the church, said that public officials like Ms. Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, Ky., had a duty to follow the law, despite their religious convictions.

“Office holders remain free to draw upon their personal beliefs and motivations and advocate their positions in the public square,” Elder Oaks said. “But when acting as public officials, they are not free to apply personal convictions, religious or other, in place of the defined responsibilities of their public offices. All government officers should exercise their civil authority according to the principles and within the limits of civil government.”

Referring to Ms. Davis without naming her, Elder Oaks said: “A county clerk’s recent invoking of religious reasons to justify refusal by her office and staff to issue marriage licenses to same-gender couples violates this principle.”

They still oppose same sex marriage, but in a way that I can respect. Too bad other Faiths can't be as reasonable.
Ohh let her die.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Kumitedad wrote:
tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.



Equating giving citizens the right to marry to sending people to death camps is fairly insane, even by your standards. Are you actually a double agent/atheist trying to discredit the religious right? That is the only thing explaining this statement
Lets add, that we are talking about obeying the law, not following illegal orders.

The thin with the death camps were they were (even under German law at the time) technically illegal.

Also I love the fact that Tsotone (who is arguing that people should be allowed to blindly obey rules no matter how much they harm others) should be arguing agasint blindly following rules.
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Has she tried looking behind the couch?
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Chief Slovenly
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Kumitedad wrote:
tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.



Equating giving citizens the right to marry to sending people to death camps is fairly insane, even by your standards. Are you actually a double agent/atheist trying to discredit the religious right? That is the only thing explaining this statement


Well, there is the alternative explanation (I thought we covered this - here, I'll help):

- All gay people (and their allies, obvs) are Nazis, who need to be cornered until they commit suicide in bunkers
- All conservative NO HOMO Christians are Jews, oppressed in hidden attics everywhere

Historical PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE:
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Junior McSpiffy
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bbenston wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
tstone wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Godwin'd!!!

Don't assume. You don't do it very well...


So...state officers just following orders/policy ISN'T good enough. Glad we agree.



Equating giving citizens the right to marry to sending people to death camps is fairly insane, even by your standards. Are you actually a double agent/atheist trying to discredit the religious right? That is the only thing explaining this statement


Well, there is the alternative explanation (I thought we covered this - here, I'll help):

- All gay people (and their allies, obvs) are Nazis, who need to be cornered until they commit suicide in bunkers
- All conservative NO HOMO Christians are Jews, oppressed in hidden attics everywhere

Historical PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE:


Dammit. And I have a severe allergic reaction to fiberglass insulation.
 
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tstone wrote:
I assume you "respect" the folks at Nurenberg who said "we were just following orders."

Since this has been Godwin'd, I think it's funny that the bit of LDS doctrine that ejmowrer quoted --
ejmowrer wrote:
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
-- which seems so progressive in this particular context, was also the basis of the LDS Church's interactions with the Nazi party in the 1930s.

While the Church never endorsed the degenerate practices of the Nazi party, it did its best maintain good relations with them and encouraged members to obey the law. It's a policy the Church continues to abide by throughout the world to this day regardless of local politics.
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Junior McSpiffy
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So as I was preparing my lesson for today's Elder's Quorum, I came across two quotes which combined to really make me think of this dear ol' RSP haunt and this thread in particular. The first quote is from one of my two all-time favorite prophets. Gordon B Hinckley was speaking of political commentators who were often "aflame with indignation."

Gordon B Hinckley wrote:
With studied art, they poured out the sour vinegar of invective and anger.... Surely, this is the age and place of the gifted pickle sucker.


The second quote is from one of the truly great Mormon scholars of his day, Hugh W Nibley. He was asked whether world conditions and our duty to spread the gospel made it desirable to seek some way to "be accommodating of the world in what we do in the church."

Hugh W Nibley wrote:
That's been the whole story of the church, hasn't it? You have to be willing to offend here, you have to be willing to take the risk. That's where the faith comes in.... Our committment is supposed to be a test, it's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be impractical in the terms of this world.


So as I think of those two comments in regard to the statements made regarding the Twelfth Article of Faith, I feel very comfortable in my stance here on this. Despite not standing in favor of the denial of marriage certificates, there is no uncertainty about how the church stands on the issue of marriage. There doesn't need to be cries of outrage about it. A simple declaration that the world around us doesn't agree with our values conveys all that need be said. Conducting ourselves in a Christian fashion while not condoning the actions of the world seems to be all that need be done in matters like this.
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GameCrossing wrote:
So as I was preparing my lesson for today's Elder's Quorum, I came across two quotes which combined to really make me think of this dear ol' RSP haunt and this thread in particular. The first quote is from one of my two all-time favorite prophets. Gordon B Hinckley was speaking of political commentators who were often "aflame with indignation."

Gordon B Hinckley wrote:
With studied art, they poured out the sour vinegar of invective and anger.... Surely, this is the age and place of the gifted pickle sucker.


The second quote is from one of the truly great Mormon scholars of his day, Hugh W Nibley. He was asked whether world conditions and our duty to spread the gospel made it desirable to seek some way to "be accommodating of the world in what we do in the church."

Hugh W Nibley wrote:
That's been the whole story of the church, hasn't it? You have to be willing to offend here, you have to be willing to take the risk. That's where the faith comes in.... Our committment is supposed to be a test, it's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be impractical in the terms of this world.


So as I think of those two comments in regard to the statements made regarding the Twelfth Article of Faith, I feel very comfortable in my stance here on this. Despite not standing in favor of the denial of marriage certificates, there is no uncertainty about how the church stands on the issue of marriage. There doesn't need to be cries of outrage about it. A simple declaration that the world around us doesn't agree with our values conveys all that need be said. Conducting ourselves in a Christian fashion while not condoning the actions of the world seems to be all that need be done in matters like this.


And even coming at this from the other side of the spectrum, the above sounds completely fine to me. Render unto Caesar, and church matters are protected activity regardless.

However, since I'm a fan of irony, I'll note that:

1. There will always be gay Mormons.
2. "Gifted pickle suckers"? In a discussion about gay marriage?
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