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Board Game: Blood Rage
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Subject: Tyr's challenge- repillage rss

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Andrew McGrath
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Does this upgrade card allow a player to gain the pillage token more than once in an age?

Tyr's challenge : for 2 rage, repillage an already pillaged province.
 
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Harujongil wrote:
Does this upgrade card allow a player to gain the pillage token more than once in an age?

Tyr's challenge : for 2 rage, repillage an already pillaged province.
As far as the card's text goes, you can do it as many times as you have rage to pay for it. We play it that way and if someone can pillage Ygdrassil 5 times in succesion, then so be it. Keep in mind though that every time you win a battle, you lose battle cards, so it's not very likely to happen.
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unless their is no battle... aka everyone else ran out of Troops (and rage)
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MadVikingKing wrote:
unless their is no battle... aka everyone else ran out of Troops (and rage)
You don't need rage to answer a call to battle.
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Vali Lean
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I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about this... So, in the scenario where the 5 Glory pillage tile is on a small (3 village) province, a player early in the turn order could march 3 figures over to it, and pillage it 3 to 4 times (assuming starting with got 8 or 9 rage) for 15 to 20 points...

And there would be nothing anyone could do about it, except I guess invade with a boat to force them to at least play a card for Battle... except if it's 3 figures vs. one boat, the boat is likely to lose giving the player "camping" the 5 Glory tile more glory.

Maybe spending all your rage on "just points" is a bad strategy?

Though... 6 rage for 15 points... doesn't sound too bad... (Especially if they managed to snag a quest for the same region!)

(In the game we were playing, the player who got this was lamenting the fact that the 5 Glory tile was on a 5 village province, rather than an easily fill-able 3 village one)
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DHMWanken wrote:
I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about this... So, in the scenario where the 5 Glory pillage tile is on a small (3 village) province, a player early in the turn order could march 3 figures over to it, and pillage it 3 to 4 times (assuming starting with got 8 or 9 rage) for 15 to 20 points...

And there would be nothing anyone could do about it, except I guess invade with a boat to force them to at least play a card for Battle... except if it's 3 figures vs. one boat, the boat is likely to lose giving the player "camping" the 5 Glory tile more glory.

Maybe spending all your rage on "just points" is a bad strategy?

Though... 6 rage for 15 points... doesn't sound too bad... (Especially if they managed to snag a quest for the same region!)

(In the game we were playing, the player who got this was lamenting the fact that the 5 Glory tile was on a 5 village province, rather than an easily fill-able 3 village one)
In my opinion, 15 glory isn't all that much if you want to spend your rage plus 3 turns on it. Pillage 3 times 1 x rage may even be much stronger.
In the meantime everyone else is pillaging other provinces, gaining glory for winning battles (remember, if you pillage without resistance you get no glory award other than from the 5 glory token) and stuff. While you use your rage and turns for pillaging 5 glory.

Personally I have only used Tyr's challenge for re-pillaging Ygdrassil. Especially with the upgrade that "gains the reward again" or "if you pillage with your leader, upgrade all clan stats" that is really a strong combo!
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Jason Preder
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Ya, it might not be too great, 5 Glory for 2 rage, but what if Odin is on there too. Now it is 10 Glory.
Would be nice to have official ruling on what was intended for this card.
 
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Chris D
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I'd like to have an official answer for this one too, we had this situation in our first game yesterday and one player tried to "abuse the card (he also had the upgrade that let you upgrade all the stats if you pillage with a leader).

Now I don't claim to be a strategy expert at this game obviously but while on the normal provinces this card seems ok even if it does get you the reward twice, with Yggdrasil it appears to be kind of broken, since he managed to reach very easily the +20 glory bonus in each of his stats.

The board was in such a state where he could pillage at the beginning of the age avoiding competition (or winning very easily a battle if opposed, which just gave him more glory to boot).

Now, the end scoring was very close and he did not win, but I suspect that if he played a bit more competently, he would have easily made about ten glory elsewhere assuring the win.

What actually scares me is that to prevent such strategy the other players have to really play around it - ok, we should probably have hate-drafted the leader upgrade card, but otherwise, the other players' plans would have been kind of wrecked (it didn't help that I went the Valhalla suicide route).

Or maybe it is indeed balanced all the same and I'm worried about nothing... still, an answer would be nice
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mellad khoshnood
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This strategy just ravaged the last game we played. It was a 3 player game and the player marched into Yggdrasil with full force after forcing a loss for myself and himself in another location to thin opposition (good move, honestly, had the: everyone discards their first battle cards card to whittle it down more).

He then won Yggdrasil in a huge brawl with a +6 and 2 +3 reinforcements. After he killed all the opposition and he his full force with 6 left over rage, he just repillaged Yggdrasil and maxed out all of his stats. 60 points for 6 rage... I didn't care as much when he did it to outlying regions, but I feel like once you win the first battle in Yggdrasil, there's not much the other players can do about it.

I feel like it's not too terribly OP in outer provinces, but under the right circumstances in Yggdrassil, it's pretty game set and match at that point. Granted it's a good strategy and not impossible to foil, but it would take a good amount of coordination among the other players to successfully stop it. Maybe a "once per round" for Yggdrassil would help, but maybe this is just because we're only 2 games in.
 
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I'm curious about this one, too. I had the "pillaging with a leader lets up upgrade all stats" upgrade, and was camped out in the province that gave +5 glory. (I had all 3 spaces filled.) I pillaged it probably 5 times in the 3rd age, and it was definitely the key to me winning. At first I was happy that my plan worked out, but it also felt kind of cheap. If the other players had noticed they could have stopped me along the way, but once I was in position there was nothing they could do about it.
 
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number_eight wrote:
but it also felt kind of cheap. If the other players had noticed they could have stopped me along the way
This game is about exploiting combos and tactically succeeding on your plan. Good job, it shouldnt feel cheap. This is how the game is supposed to be played.
 
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We ran out BR with 2 players, last night, and this came up. I was wiped off the map at the end of the first age, and was a bit behind on clan upgrades, but I pulled a sneaky. I stacked up on combat cards, got my leader into the Ygdrasil and pillaged, drawing in all of my opponent's pieces. I managed to beat him and then was alone on the board. I could pillage away on there another 3 times because I still had a decent combat card, and it took him some time to try to get enough troops on there to be able to try to challenge me. Esp as TC didn't cost me any rage to play out, due to another clan upgrade, this did feel quite OP - 12 upgrades in one age - yes I did sort-of combo it, but it wasn't a hugely difficult one to set up.

However we were wondering-if/suspecting-that this is an unusual situation? I'm guessing that with more players, it will be a lot more difficult to do this? Any general tips to try to stop it being "abused"? Esp as in the next age, I could have carried on doing this even more and it would have probably come down to who lucked out and got the better combat cards.
 
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All of the above discussion about this has happened at least twice in my group(s)to devastating effect--that is, very wide point margins between 1st and 2nd.

Tyr's Challenge is a no-brainer card. And since it's a no-brainer, it's merely a matter of luck as to who receives it. And I imagine, in the future it'll go something like this:
"Oh look, Brad got Tyr's Challenge. I wonder which territory/territories he's going to secure for the rest of the game? We better all alter our strategies in order to prevent him from exploiting that single upgrade for the win."

So far, if one even hopes to win, there's hardly a choice involved when this card comes into the draft--regardless of your current strategy. Furthermore, once a player plunks it down, far too much attention and resources are required from the other players to counter this single card's power. The game feels noticeably more deterministic when it comes into play. Hardly what you'd expect from the #12 ranked strategy game (currently). But those minis sure are amazing... Hmm, I digress.

It is just one card though. Could be house-ruled, or removed easily enough. whistle
 
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If I had a coin every time I heard a card is broken, I'd have several coins now.

Tyr's Challenge is broken, Loki's Trickery is broken, Odin's Throne is broken, Frigga's Charm is broken, Fire Giant is broken, and so on.

There are ways around each card. You prevent other players from gaining the most from their broken cards. Or you use your broken cards to the fullest and gain more points than them.

When everything's broken, nothing is. The game works.

On the point of topic. So you got Tyr's Challenge. Good for you. Go ahead and use 2 rage to up a stat - I'll go pillage something else for free. Or I win you in combat and now you don't have superior force for the repillage. Or I lose to you a couple of times (stealing points, losing a 8-point ship) and now you don't have combat cards to win. And so on.
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arry1 wrote:
If I had a coin every time I heard a card is broken, I'd have several coins now.

Tyr's Challenge is broken, Loki's Trickery is broken, Odin's Throne is broken, Frigga's Charm is broken, Fire Giant is broken, and so on.
As I was reading Darin, my mind was forming the same response that I have posted so many times. Then Arry saved me from having to make it again. If one thinks Tyr's challenge is the best card in the game... they are just plain wrong. There are at least 5 cards that are so much more broken than that.
The game is fine, if you houserule this, you have to houserule 10 other cards and combos. You might just try playing without cards at all at that point.
 
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toddpark75 wrote:
arry1 wrote:
If I had a coin every time I heard a card is broken, I'd have several coins now.

Tyr's Challenge is broken, Loki's Trickery is broken, Odin's Throne is broken, Frigga's Charm is broken, Fire Giant is broken, and so on.
As I was reading Darin, my mind was forming the same response that I have posted so many times. Then Arry saved me from having to make it again. If one thinks Tyr's challenge is the best card in the game... they are just plain wrong. There are at least 5 cards that are so much more broken than that.
The game is fine, if you houserule this, you have to houserule 10 other cards and combos. You might just try playing without cards at all at that point.
Since I neither said it was "broken" nor "the best card in the game," I'm glad you didn't waste your breath as well.

If you want clarification, I stated my sentiments quite clearly above (for what they're worth). And I'll gladly admit here that I'm not a seasoned player of the game by any means. Just sharing as other players have done so. And it appears that I'm hardly alone.

I actually quite enjoy the relative power of many of the cards in this game, depending on game state. And the tension when drafting, also relative to the game state, is an enjoyable part of the game for me as well. But in my experience thus far, few cards are as automatic as Tyr's Challenge. In the games I've played so far, no card has driven such wide point margins as this one.
 
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You implied that its almost a guaranteed win for the person with this card. I have heard the same thing about 10 different cards from other non-seasoned players.
It sounded like you were complaining about the unbalance of the game. I have heard similar complaints many times from other non-seasoned players. I am suggesting to all non-seasoned players to give the game 5-10 plays before complaining about any card being too powerful.
 
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toddpark75 wrote:
You implied that its almost a guaranteed win for the person with this card. I have heard the same thing about 10 different cards from other non-seasoned players.
It sounded like you were complaining about the unbalance of the game. I have heard similar complaints many times from other non-seasoned players. I am suggesting to all non-seasoned players to give the game 5-10 plays before complaining about any card being too powerful.
Not guaranteed, but leaning that direction if left unchecked (a better way to sum up my rambling statements above). From my limited experience thus far (5 games in), and having seen it exploited twice for the win, naturally my my attention is drawn to its effectiveness. No one among my groups has been able to attribute so many points acquired to a single upgrade to match this one. My sentiments thus far are not my penultimate judgement upon this card nor the game; merely what my experience has shown me thus far. I'm open and looking forward to being wrong.
 
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Well, Darin, your point about this card being a no-brainer and warping the whole game experience around it - and especially the notion that it's the one card as opposed to many - was too close to a `broken' description in my book, that's why I went to that rant.

That Tyr's Challenge is too powerful must be just a quirk of your group. There was a similar common feeling about Loki's Trickery in mine after a couple of games; about Odin's Throne in some other (as reported on this forum). My point is that you adapt to the card's presence, and there are tactics that render it less effective, and likewise with every card.

Oh, and here's a report of the most effective use of TC that I've seen. One player got this and the leader's upgrade from the second age (upgrade one stat if you pillage with the leader). Holed up in a 3-village province along with a ship and one warrior. Though there was one hole in that province, no one would go in for battles. He then proceeded to pillage three times and maxed out all stats in the second age. Didn't win still.
 
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Our first occasion was very similar to this↑ except that no one could join in the battle even if they'd wanted to, since the controlling player had filled each space in the province. I had Loki's Trickery and wanted to get in there just so I could drain his rage. And the one he pillaged over and over again had the 5 glory token inside of it. He actually managed to secure the two bottom leftmost provinces this way, but due to being able to upgrade a stat each time he pillaged from the previous round, it quickly became a waste to pillage anything but the 5 rage reward. That's pretty well all he did during the final round.

He himself stated that it was a rather dry victory (but a win nonetheless).
 
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dbolyard wrote:
Our first occasion was very similar to this↑ except that no one could join in the battle even if they'd wanted to, since the controlling player had filled each space in the province. I had Loki's Trickery and wanted to get in there just so I could drain his rage. And the one he pillaged over and over again had the 5 glory token inside of it. He actually managed to secure the two bottom leftmost provinces this way, but due to being able to upgrade a stat each time he pillaged from the previous round, it quickly became a waste to pillage anything but the 5 rage reward. That's pretty well all he did during the final round.

He himself stated that it was a rather dry victory (but a win nonetheless).
You can always place you ship or the sea serpent in the province where he's doing it
 
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Quote:
Not guaranteed, but leaning that direction if left unchecked [...]
Well, I do believe any strong engine will have an easy win "if left unchecked". That being said, if the player who has Tyr's Challenge can have a perfect setup for his engine, he's still not likely to get more than 140 points from a full game using it, and that is if he can max rage and get some missions that overlap with the locked province. Considering it drains your rage, he won't have many more sources of glory throughout the game. With a perfect setup, there are engines that will put you way over 200 glory, which makes a Tyr's Challenge engine usually a poor choice in and of itself.

Tyr's Challenge costs 0 rage to upgrade, plus 2 rage for every repillage. Let's assume the player who got Tyr's Challenge started age 2 with 9 rage. Difficult, but feasible. That means, unless the other players aren't doing anything, that he will either have horns 1 or 2, for a max of either 4 or 5 figures on the board.

He drafts TC plus 2 missions, starts the age with 9 rage and 5 figures on the board, and has the 5-glory 3-village province already locked down. Now on his first and second turns, he puts his two missions down. Third turn he upgrades TC. Fourth turn, he pillages (+5 glory). Fifth turn, he spends 2 rage and repillages (10 glory, 7 rage). Sixth turn, he spends 2 rage and repillages (15 glory, 5 rage). Seventh turn, he does it again (20/3), and on his eighth turn, once again (25/1).

So, age two must have gone for 8 turns, which is already quite a lot, and pretty much requires no rush strategy going on for any player. Since his strategy drains him of his rage, if he wishes to stay on his lockout province, his fighting power for anything around the board will not be very high. Optimally, he will have both a leader and a Dwarf Chieftain for disputing other places around the map. Best case scenario, he'll bring his rage up to 12, but again, that will likely only happen if other players aren't paying any attention to the game. Or maybe they are, and just don't care.

At the end of age 2, he gets 14 points for the missions (39 glory).

Let's assume age 3 has Ragnarök happening on his locked province, and that he drafted Odin's Throne. First turn, he spends 2 rage to upgrade OT (39/10). Second and third turn, he puts his two missions down. Then for his 6 next turns, he pillages, going 44/10, 49/8, 54/6, 59/4, 64/2, and finally, 69/0. At the end of the age, he'll get 36 points for OT and his 2 missions (105), and 12 points for dying in Ragnarök (117). Finally, he'll get maybe 20 points for maxing out his rage stat, finishing the game at 139.

That's considering a pretty smooth ride, with very long rounds and a nearly perfect draft. There are engines that require much less of a hassle and will still yield more average points than this one.

Notice that TC alone would have given him only 45 of those 139 points. It is decent, but definitely not game-breaking. I've already gotten 198 points with a rush setup that wouldn't allow that player to get more than 30 points off of TC, having rounds last no longer than 4 or 5 turns.

I understand where you're coming from, but it is as other folks have already mentioned here: there are many powerful combos. Some require a longer setup, but will yield more glory if pulled off correctly. Others don't really require a lot to be minimally effective, but on a regular game, are likely to be stomped on by more complex engines.

In terms of pure point engines, there's little that could be more satisfying than pulling off a successful Frigga's Domain > Frigga's Sacrifice > Sea Serpent > Eternal Dragons combo. You can get over 160 glory from that alone, without taking anything else into consideration. With a perfect setup, you can score well over 250 glory with it.
 
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arry1 wrote:
When everything's broken, nothing is. The game works.
So true...
 
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We removed the card from the game. Every time someone got it, they'd move a huge force to the center of the board and do nothing but repillage it until they were maxed out. They won every single time. So the card is gone now. We don't miss it.
 
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akaliel wrote:
We removed the card from the game. Every time someone got it, they'd move a huge force to the center of the board and do nothing but repillage it until they were maxed out. They won every single time. So the card is gone now. We don't miss it.
If thats the way you want to play great, but for some reason I will argue. If they had that large force and were able to pillage ygdrasil once, they would have probably ended the game with at least 20-30 bonus stat points anyway, so this card would earn them at most 30-40 points. You could kill that army with the battle card that kills everyone except one from each player, so its not like there isnt a counter.
Are you also removing odins thone? That along with 3-4 quests will get at least those same points.
Are you also removing the invade from valhala card? That with eternal dragons can easily net over 40 points.
Are you also removing the card that gives you 3 points for figures on the board at the end of the game? Or 3 points to release from vahala? Those can net 30 points.
All of those are just as powerful and arguably harder to counter than Tyr's challenge.
 
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