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Subject: Detainees Run Amok rss

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Tony M
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If there are undeployed patrol officers present in the police station while detainees are running amok, do they grant extra dice to your arrest roll to resolve the event ?

 
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Dave Kudzma
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I don't think it says definitively anywhere, but I've always played it that you get the dice. I've had times when there where no officers present, but generally Amok is just an added distraction, even if generally it's too easy to resolve.
 
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Common Man Games
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Hey Tony!

Thanks for asking, and great question!!!

Answer:

Yes, Dave it correct!

they don't help because...

Though I do like to keep the patrol officers at the station when not deployed, technically they are off the side of the board (thus not present at the station while this "amok" is happenin').

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Barry Miller
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Karl,

Now I'm confused. I was agreeing with Dave and it sounded like you were also, for a second. But then you contradicted yourself by saying they don't help because technically they're off the board. I could very easily be misunderstanding this entire conversation, but otherwise I think the rulebook is actually quite clear on this subject:

- The setup instructions (pg 2) clearly say to place the Patrol Officer Tokens in the Police Station, and page 14 says they are, "...generally housed in the Police Station,...". And finally, the same page also defines the stockpile as being at the Police Station.
- The ARREST rules (pg 6) describe the ARREST action as, "attempt to arrest a criminal element, which most often means a Punk, when you are at their location."
- The same ARREST rules say to add an extra die per Patrol Officer Token that you discard [from the location]
- Page 14 says that to use the Patrol Officers, you may, "... place them in any location(s) of your choice, and not JUST in Bad Hoods (you may even place [them] in the same location."
- And finally, the event card instructs the player to arrest the punks as a normal Punk arrest.

So per all the rules I quoted above is why I agree with Dave in interpreting the rules in that they clearly say that you can use the Patrol Officer Tokens to increase the number of dice you roll while arresting punks at the Police Station.

I'm not trying to call you out (though I guess it comes across as that way), but as you are the king when it comes to these rules, I'm sincerely wondering if I'm misinterpreting them or again, am misunderstanding this conversation!






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Dave Kudzma
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I'm forced to agree with Barry here; it's the setup rules that lead me to my conclusion, and clearly I'm not alone.
 
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Common Man Games
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oops!

My bad!!!



I stand corrected.

Not in the ruling, which I continue to affirm that Dave is correct that the Patrol Officers who are at the Station due to the fact that they have not been assigned a beat yet are considered to be inactive in the game (as if they were sitting off to the side of the board).

My mess up is that I forgot that we made that little change in the rules for the 2nd Edition that dictates that Patrol Officers shall begin the game on the board at the Police Station.

When it came time to publish the 2nd Edition, we decided (for thematic purposes) to have the "Stockpile" for the Patrol Officers be moved from just off the edge of the board over to the Station (on the board).

This is just a personal preference, but when I play Police Precinct I like to, not only keep them there when they are waiting to be assigned a beat, but ALSO to keep all of the excess Punks at that location (in a holding tank). So, though it is not in the rules, my house rule (just for fun & thematic purposes) is to move the stockpile for the Punks onto the board.

So, regardless of if you choose to also use this house rule, whenever a token is in their respective Stockpile, they are in-effect not in the game (from a game play stand point).

meeplemeeplemeeplemeeplemeeple

Thanks for catching my mistake!

It's awesome that you-guys are assigned to this beat!

Keep it up!!!

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

I think that part of the reason I made that mistake was because I knew that I was using house rules with the way I handle the tokens that go to the Police Station during the game, but forgot that one of those house rules is now actually official.



btw -- maybe, some day, we (CMG) will make my personal house-rule regarding the Punks having their Stockpile at the Police Station into an official rule.

(maybe)

Barry, all of the above does not mean that it is impossible to use Patrol Officers when responding to the Detainees Run Amok card.
They would need to NOT be in their Stockpile is all.
Here's how that could happen....
If the player who responds to the call (as their Action) arrives at the station (or is already there)with an "Officer Assistance" card in hand, they could very easily play that card after their movement but before they actually take their Action. In fact they would not even need the card if one of the prior players had played one and assigned a Patrol Officer (or two) to that location (strategically speaking, there is no reason to assign more than two, but it is allowed of course - Also assigning Patrol Officers to this location prior to the Detainees Run Amok card appearing would be allowed but not a wise choice).

Thanks again guys!!!

 
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Barry Miller
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Karl,

Thanks for the reply, and I got everything you're saying, to include your last paragraph! But there's still a problem with the rules. It's this:

Common Man Games wrote:
Patrol Officers who are at the Station due to the fact that they have not been assigned a beat yet are considered to be inactive in the game.

The rules don't say this at all. As a matter of fact, the way I read the rules contradicts this by the excerpts I provided earlier.

I could still be missing something and as such am very wrong right now. But if I'm correct, then perhaps an errata entry is needed to add this as a rule? I.e., "Add to Page 14: The Patrol Officer Token stock, located at the Police Station, is considered to be out of play".



 
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Common Man Games
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Hey Barry!

I want nothing more than to have the rules be crystal clear and easy to read, so...

Thanks for staying on top of this possible issue!

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

In my opinion, when the rules state that a token is "in the Stockpile" that gamers would consider it to be not active in the game.

Maybe I'm wrong about how widely people would view it that way.

Regardless, let's clear this up to the utmost. That seems best!



So, I like your wording for how to get this done, but I wrote my own which is a little different.

I added to the last paragraph to do it. The last paragraph did read like this...

"Patrol Officers cannot be used to Assist when Handling Emergencies or Investigating the murder."

I propose that it now reads like this...

"Patrol Officers cannot be used to Assist when Handling Emergencies or Investigating the murder. Nor can they be used for any purpose if they are in the stockpile (e.g. they must be dispatched to the Station to help with Detainees Running Amok, etc.)."

Thoughts?

meeplemeeplemeeplemeeplemeeple

 
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Barry Miller
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Definitely on the right track, but using the wording, "...they must be dispatched to the Station..." would still confuse dunderheads such as myself because they're already at the station!

I'd wonder what was meant by "dispatch to the station" if they're already there, and so then I'd post a rules question on BGG and you'd be compelled to answer it when you'd rather be doing something else, and yadda yadda yadda.

So I'd recommend adding a few more words to clarify the difference between, being at the station but in the "stockpile" waiting for dispatch, and being dispatched.
And then add perhaps, "A dispatch assignment can include the station itself. If dispatched to the station, physically separate the "dispatched" officer tokens from the "stockpile" tokens".

Or something to that effect. Just thinking out loud, but that's the sort of clarity I appreciate in a Rulebook. But again, I'm a dunderhead so for what its worth!





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Common Man Games
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Oh, it's worth plenty!



Here's how it reads now...

------------------------------------------------

Patrol Officers cannot be used to Assist when Handling Emergencies or Investigating the murder. Nor can they be used for any purpose if they are in the stockpile. For example, they must be dispatched to the Station to help with an Event like Detainees Running Amok. In other words, a dispatch assignment can include the Station itself. If dispatched to the Station, physically separate the "dispatched" Patrol Officer tokens from the "stockpile" tokens.

------------------------------------------------

Thoughts?

meeple
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Barry Miller
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Bingo.
 
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Martin Gallo
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While that works, it might make it clearer if somewhere in the rules a distinction is made between the stockpile of unassigned patrol officers, stored off-map, and assigned patrol officers.

Unassigned patrol officers can be assigned to the Station to help with Detainees Running Amok or other emergencies.

Make it clear that unassigned officers are not actively involved in the game until assigned.
 
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Barry Miller
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Martin, I think the confusion is born from the fact that the unassigned Patrol Officer stockpile is stored on the map, at the Police Station. The rules are clear on this. There is no off-map stockpile.

 
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Martin Gallo
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Yes. Storing them off-map might reduce confusion. I am not sure it is a big problem, ust a small one that some "clever" wording might allay.
 
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Common Man Games
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We have been moving in the direction of storing tokens ON the Map/Board, and would rather keep moving in that direction so long as it doesn't cause any major problems.

 
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Common Man Games
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by the way...

The wording changes we are making now will affect the next print run where we go through the proofing process again, so not the one that is entering full-scale production now.

(arriving in Q1)

meeple
 
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Dave Kudzma
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I'm finally revisiting here, and now it all makes sense. I always thought the Detainees card was a bit of a throw-away as they are often at the police station. This now makes that card "work".

I will say, however, that at higher difficulties, including with Lying Politicians, the Patrol Officers are rarely there for this event, so this hasn't made any difference for me in some time. We've been doing it the "hard way" for a while.
 
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Common Man Games
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Hey Dave!

That's true about Lying Politicians.

And...

The Patrol Officers will be out on the beat more in Turf Wars too (a team based expansion coming soon).

I like to see them playing a bigger role when possible.

meeplemeeplemeeplemeeplemeeple
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Ryan Dorton
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Any word on the Expansion for this game?
 
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Common Man Games
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BBBD77 wrote:
Any word on the Expansion for this game?


do you mean the "Turn Wars" that I referred to above?



 
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