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Subject: Fort construction rss

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juerg haeberli
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Is it possible to place a German fort in Malta if Malta was taken by Italy ?

If not....Is it possible to place a German fort in a neutral that was taken by Italy ?
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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The way I read 7.231, only German forts can be built in both cases, as neither one is Italian National/Colonial Territory.
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Craig Besinque
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Yep.

Craig
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juerg haeberli
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Thanks again.
Super that helps with some of the strategies I am planning.
 
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Brett Johnson
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Questions for Craig -

Additional (and important) fort construction questions...

7.231 Building Fortresses
Major Power Fortresses must be built in Major Power National/Colonial Territory. Great Power Fortresses must be built in all other areas.


Major Power Forts - Although it doesn't say so, I'm assuming (?) the intent here is major powers can build forts ONLY in their OWN territory (i.e., no US forts in France/Italy).

Great Power Forts - Should this be interpreted that Great Power forts can NOT be built in Major Power Territory?

If so, does this change depending on whether the Great Power is allied?

If so, does this change after Major Power is defeated?

Practical Examples:
1) Allied Great Power build, Major not defeated - West wants to build British fort in Paris to help prevent French Surrender (max strength is 1 higher than a French Fort).
2) Allied Great Power build, Major defeated - West wants to build a British Fort in French territory after D-Day to secure their position.
3) Enemy Great Power build, Major not defeated - Russia wants to build a fort in Italy after making inroads thru the Balkans.
4) Enemy Great Power build, Major defeated - After Germany conquers France, they want to build the Atlantic Wall by constructing German forts on French coastal territory.

My best interpretation currently is that Great Power forts can NOT be placed in Major Power Territory while the Major Power exits (i.e., not defeated). However after defeat, the Major Power no longer exists and thus Great Power forts could be constructed...

This is straight-forward, but allows the strange case of say Russia being able to build forts in German territory, but not Italian territory (until they surrender).

The simplest rule would simply be to say that Great Power forts can be built anywhere...

Craig - what is your intent on this one?
 
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Chris Clarke
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I'll take a stab before Craig replies just to see if I'm understanding.

By example:

1) Major power building in Major territory. Must be French in Paris if France is undefeated.

2) France doesn't belong to a faction after its defeat (2.21). This doesn't technically mean that France isn't French Territory. BUT, I'd assume that the territory belongs to whomever controls Paris. If that's the UK, then you can build a UK fort there. If it's Germany, you can't.

3) I see what you're saying here. The RAW seems to be telling us that only Italy can build fortresses in Italy...preventing occupying enemy Great Powers from building fortresses there. I'm thinking this rule only applies to Allies. Meaning only that if Italy were to build a fortress, it must build one in Italian territory/colonies and Germany could not build a fortress in Italy unless Italy had fallen. NOT exluding the building of Fortresses in occupied Italian territory by Enemies.

4)Same as 2, I'd think. France is now German Territory, which allows Germany to build there.

EDIT: Unless, of course, I actually read how Craig responded above and surmised that 7.231 should be clarified to read "Home territories". (If Italy takes Malta, it is now Italian territory, but it is not Italian Home Territory, thus only German Fortresses can be built there.)
 
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Chris Clarke
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I've actually just discovered a contradiction in Craig's responses.

From CSW (taken out of context)

Craig answers:

So if an Italian ground unit takes Malta (cannot place a Control marker) and then moves out of without leaving a unit there, Malta reverts to West control.

This is how the rules apply in these cases (Malta and Gib are the only Colonies without a Capital -- note that Syria DOES have a Capital). The Italians do have the recourse of building a Fort to hold them if taken.



Notice here he is saying Italy CAN build a fortress outside of Italian Home Territory, but above, in this thread, he has agreed that only German Fortresses can be built.


 
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Chris Clarke
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Well, I got it now.

1.1 Land Areas are color-coded according
to national ownership. National
Territory consists of all Land Areas
within a Nation.

And

2.3 Home Territory
Land Areas within the national
boundaries of a Great or Major
Power (color coded) are termed its
Home Territory.

The terms are synonymous. Therefore I assume that the CSW post was erroneous and his comments above are correct.

And I'll still stand by my interpretation of Korval's examples. For now. blush
 
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Brian Evans
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I believe Craig misspoke regarding the Italian Fort. To my recollection, only German Forts may be built outside of Italian National or Colony areas (light gray color on the map).

As always, Craig has the last word here, but I believe only a German Fort could be built in Malta or Gibraltar. Even if occupied by an Italian unit, these areas are not eligible for an Italian Fort.
 
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Chris Clarke
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Can you speak on Korval's other questions?
 
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Brian Evans
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Quote:
Practical Examples:
1) Allied Great Power build, Major not defeated - West wants to build British fort in Paris to help prevent French Surrender (max strength is 1 higher than a French Fort).
2) Allied Great Power build, Major defeated - West wants to build a British Fort in French territory after D-Day to secure their position.
3) Enemy Great Power build, Major not defeated - Russia wants to build a fort in Italy after making inroads thru the Balkans.
4) Enemy Great Power build, Major defeated - After Germany conquers France, they want to build the Atlantic Wall by constructing German forts on French coastal territory.



1) Not legal. Only French units may be built in France.
2) Legal. Can only be Brit Fort as French units are no longer in the game. American units only in America.
3) Russia can build a Fort in an Italian space, as long as he has control there. This is not exclusive to Allies. Germans could build a Fort in Lorraine even with France undefeated.
4) This works ok.

Perhaps we could of worded it better, but here's the idea:

If you occupy an area, you can build a Fort there. Period. But, the type of fort (French vs Brits for example) may differ. This depends on:
1) If it's your own national territory, then you must respect the national identity and only build Forts of that type. So, if you're the Axis, you can only build Italian forts in Italy.
2) If you're an occupying force, that is to say you're the Russians in Italy or the Americans in Germany, then only your Great Power Forts may be built. This means only Russian, German and British Forts may be built in a foreign land.

This all comes from 7.231. Though maybe we could of made it a little more plain. Something to work on for the 2nd edition (whenever that is!)
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Chris Clarke
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Well said!
 
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Brett Johnson
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[q="Furyn"]
Quote:
Practical Examples:

If you occupy an area, you can build a Fort there. Period. But, the type of fort (French vs Brits for example) may differ. This depends on:
1) If it's your own national territory, then you must respect the national identity and only build Forts of that type. So, if you're the Axis, you can only build Italian forts in Italy.
2) If you're an occupying force, that is to say you're the Russians in Italy or the Americans in Germany, then only your Great Power Forts may be built. This means only Russian, German and British Forts may be built in a foreign land.

This all comes from 7.231. Though maybe we could of made it a little more plain. Something to work on for the 2nd edition (whenever that is!)


Just an observation as a relatively new player (5 games) - I *never* would have come to this conclusion based on the rules as written...

To my mind this is both complex and counter-intuitive!
Complex - different rules for Allied vs Enemy Great Power
Counter-intuitive - In spite of the fact that a power is undefeated, it is possible for an *enemy* to build a fort (ignore sabotage & logistics considerations, note this argument could be applied to neutrals also), but not your *ally* (your existence is hanging by a thread and you won't allow your allies to build a fortress to help you survive).

Just IMHO, I would prefer to see this simplified to something like...
"Great Powers may build forts in all areas, excepting undefeated Major Powers territory." (for consistency could make it - "...Major Powers & Neutrals...")
 
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Roger Reisinger
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Interesting discussion and most of the official answers I understand the reasoning. Maybe an ally wouldn't allow a major fortress of an ally on their soil, think sovereignty, whereas an enemy would build a fort regardless of how you felt.

While I personally disagree with this I see where the thought is coming from. What I don't understand is why Italy cant build a fortress if it takes Malta or Gibralter? This seems a little weird and I will play it by house rule.
 
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Brian Evans
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Thanks for your input. There's always room to improve. I'm hopeful the game sells really well so we can get a nice reprint where we can have the opportunity to wiggle the rules and clarify where we are able.


I tend to think the rules regarding building cadres as pretty consistent and simple though.

1) You only build cadres in undisputed friendly territory.
2) Cadres must be built in home territory (not colonies!) that are in supply.
3) You only build a nation's units in its own territory. Any territorial gains are considered to be that of the Great Power and not a Major Power. So, the Italians really never grab any land, for example.
4) Exception: Forts ignore rule number 2.

Now let's see if Craig comes in and wrecks me.

 
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Brian Evans
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Lowecore wrote:
While I personally disagree with this I see where the thought is coming from. What I don't understand is why Italy cant build a fortress if it takes Malta or Gibralter? This seems a little weird and I will play it by house rule.


This is certainly a case of "keep it simple". T&T is striving to be as accessible as possible which means fewer exceptions is better. Every rule added needs to be well worth its cost in terms of additional complexity and rule length. I think that's a nice house rule though. Who knows, that might be added as an advanced optional rule in a second printing.
 
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Brett Johnson
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Furyn wrote:
Lowecore wrote:
While I personally disagree with this I see where the thought is coming from. What I don't understand is why Italy cant build a fortress if it takes Malta or Gibralter? This seems a little weird and I will play it by house rule.


This is certainly a case of "keep it simple". T&T is striving to be as accessible as possible which means fewer exceptions is better. Every rule added needs to be well worth its cost in terms of additional complexity and rule length. I think that's a nice house rule though. Who knows, that might be added as an advanced optional rule in a second printing.


Brian - another observation on forts...

If the rule about Major Powers forts didn't exist (i.e., all forts treated the same), there is still an incentive to NOT build Major Power Forts outside their home country... Namely, that all these units go "poof" if the Major is ever defeated. If it was allowed and your built a Major Power fort somewhere else (e.g., Italian Fort in Berlin), it could leave you with a major and unexpected hole in your defenses.

So, although I have no issue with the Major Power Fort limitation, if you simplified this to the maximum, I think it would mostly be a self-limiting issue.

Another interesting rule that might have a "right" effect, would be to say that Forts can only be built in the owning power's National/Colonial territory, while at peace... This would prevent things like a Strength 4 British fort in Paris while still at peace, while allowing flexibility after you are war...

Interesting discussion...
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Marcus Watney
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Quote:
2) If you're an occupying force, that is to say you're the Russians in Italy or the Americans in Germany, then only your Great Power Forts may be built. This means only Russian, German and British Forts may be built in a foreign land.


This can be deduced from the fact that the sticky-label mix provides only two American forts.
 
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