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Subject: Euros that don't hold your hand rss

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Ian Kissell
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I recently played Railways of the World, and really appreciated how "tough" the game was. If you mismanage you money and have to take a bond out, you have to pay for that the rest of the game and you lose points at the end of the game. I really appreciated this, as a lot of Euros seem to hold your hand if you are not doing well.

Any suggestions on other Euros that are "tough" on the players if they don't play well? I am not necessarily looking for a "Brutal" game (maybe the different between RotW and Steam/Age of Steam), just one that requires you to play well. However, I would prefer that even if you are not doing well, that you are still able to have fun. For instance, Lewis & Clark requires you to play well, and if you are not, it is painfully obvious that you are out of the game effectively.

Other Preferences:
~90-120 minute play time
~No 18xx
~Would prefer an economic or netwoek building theme.
~Something I can actually find (someone will always recommend Indonesia for every Euro thread).

EDIT: I feel like a lot of these suggestions seem to equate "tough" with complex. RotW I think has a lot of decisions, but is not a super-complex game.

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Bob Gallo
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A lot of "classic" Martin Wallace designs are like this. You already mentioned Steam/AoS (I agree, RotW is better) ... look at the brand new Ships ... it's very much a streamlined version of Automobile (the network building is somewhat abstract). For an older title look at Brass.

BTW, I find the European map to be more challenging than the others in the RotW series. It's tighter on money, the terrain is rough, and it's crowded with 5 players.
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Daniel B-G
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I'm not allowed to suggest Indonesia. hmmmm.....

How about Food Chain Magnate given it is still in print.

All of the following are pretty remorseless.

Caylus
Dominant Species
Shogun
Hansa Teutonica
Imperial
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Bill Eldard
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StormbringerGrey wrote:
A lot of "classic" Martin Wallace designs are like this. You already mentioned Steam/AoS (I agree, RotW is better) ... look at the brand new Ships ... it's very much a streamlined version of Automobile (the network building is somewhat abstract). For an older title look at Brass.


That's what came to my mind when I read the OP. Wallace is known for tight-resource/rather unforgiving games, but they are great games nonetheless.

I recommend the following Wallace designs:

Age of Steam (more forgiving is Steam)

Automobile

Brass: Lancashire (move forgiving is Age of Industry)

Of non-Wallace designs, I recommend Panamax.
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Benjamin Maggi
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Container.

If players start over-building their production, or purchase too many of their shipments, they will enter a death spiral and likely lose. And, they very well may take others with them.
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Bob Gallo
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I think Power Grid deserves fair mention here as well. It has network building and doesn't coddle players with point salads or catch up mechanics.
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Ian Kissell
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Eldard wrote:
StormbringerGrey wrote:
A lot of "classic" Martin Wallace designs are like this. You already mentioned Steam/AoS (I agree, RotW is better) ... look at the brand new Ships ... it's very much a streamlined version of Automobile (the network building is somewhat abstract). For an older title look at Brass.


That's what came to my mind when I read the OP. Wallace is known for tight-resource/rather unforgiving games, but they are great games nonetheless.

I recommend the following Wallace designs:

Age of Steam (more forgiving is Steam)

Automobile

Brass: Lancashire (move forgiving is Age of Industry)

Of non-Wallace designs, I recommend Panamax.


I find Wallace games to be hit or miss. For instance, Perikles I find to be terribly dull (mainly because there is such as big disconnect between theme and mechanics). Wallace rides the line for me between interesting gameplay and just "cube-pushers," which is why I'm hesitant about Ships. I've only ever played Brass on a computer, and what to try it "live" at some point.
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Ian Kissell
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DAAAN wrote:

How about Food Chain Magnate given it is still in print.



This one looks interesting, but first of all it is very expensive, and I wonder if it is a bit too much. I like heavier games, but tend to gravitate towards medium-heavy games as they are easier to get into.
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Curt Carpenter
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New Amsterdam
Kanban: Driver's Edition
The Palaces of Carrara
Vanuatu
Panamax
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Le Havre
Terra Mystica
Madeira

NOT Dominant Species, which affords players lots of choices for who to screw, so being in obvious last will give you a free pass from most screwage.
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Bob Gallo
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Almost forgot one of my favorites, Pret-A-Porter. Nice engine builder/economic game (no network), you can easily trigger a death spiral if you let your overhead get out of hand... only catch is that it may be tough to get until the expected retheme is published.
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Pater Absurdus
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dios_et_dios wrote:
DAAAN wrote:

How about Food Chain Magnate given it is still in print.



This one looks interesting, but first of all it is very expensive, and I wonder if it is a bit too much. I like heavier games, but tend to gravitate towards medium-heavy games as they are easier to get into.


My copy will arrive any day now so you could try it!
 
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Daniel B-G
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Redward wrote:
dios_et_dios wrote:
DAAAN wrote:

How about Food Chain Magnate given it is still in print.



This one looks interesting, but first of all it is very expensive, and I wonder if it is a bit too much. I like heavier games, but tend to gravitate towards medium-heavy games as they are easier to get into.


My copy will arrive any day now so you could try it!


Definitely worth it. It's a heavy game, but like all splotter games, somehow it doesn't feel it. Madeira, for example, was heavy but in a way that felt artificial. Splotter games seem to be more natural/intuitive in their approach, whilst still presenting huge questions about how to proceed, and presenting many pitfalls you can fall into.
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Ian Kissell
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DAAAN wrote:
Redward wrote:
dios_et_dios wrote:
DAAAN wrote:

How about Food Chain Magnate given it is still in print.



This one looks interesting, but first of all it is very expensive, and I wonder if it is a bit too much. I like heavier games, but tend to gravitate towards medium-heavy games as they are easier to get into.


My copy will arrive any day now so you could try it!


Definitely worth it. It's a heavy game, but like all splotter games, somehow it doesn't feel it. Madeira, for example, was heavy but in a way that felt artificial. Splotter games seem to be more natural/intuitive in their approach, whilst still presenting huge questions about how to proceed, and presenting many pitfalls you can fall into.


By artificial, I assume you mean boring and arduous.
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Daniel B-G
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Boring, not exactly, arduous, I'll give you that.

It felt like complexity for complexity's sake.

As a side note, I've felt nuno and paulo's offerings have got better year on year. Madeira was interesting to learn, but not enjoyable to play. Panamax was good, at the right player count, but a little long and the stock market was undercooked. Still very enjoyable though. Nippon on the other hand was surprisingly accessible, yet presented lots of interesting decisions and the pacing was phenomenal. They seem to be getting better at distilling the interesting decisions into a tighter package each year. Madeira had too much of everything (which is what some people like about it).
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Ian Kissell
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DAAAN wrote:
Boring, not exactly, arduous, I'll give you that.

It felt like complexity for complexity's sake.

As a side note, I've felt nuno and paulo's offerings have got better year on year. Madeira was interesting to learn, but not enjoyable to play. Panamax was good, at the right player count, but a little long and the stock market was undercooked. Still very enjoyable though. Nippon on the other hand was surprisingly accessible, yet presented lots of interesting decisions and the pacing was phenomenal. They seem to be getting better at distilling the interesting decisions into a tighter package each year. Madeira had too much of everything (which is what some people like about it).


I liked Panamax, except that the most fun part of the game (loading ships and pushing them through) was not what won you the game.
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Mitch Willis
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Masters of Venice
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Adam Taylor
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Tigris & Euphrates. It's currently in print - assuming that FF haven't screwed up the rules.

There's no hand-holding or catch-up mechanism at all. If you fall behind other players may be less likely to attack you but they still might if it's in their interests or if they don't believe that you've fallen behind.

Also, it is a truly excellent game.
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Daniel B-G
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dios_et_dios wrote:
DAAAN wrote:
Boring, not exactly, arduous, I'll give you that.

It felt like complexity for complexity's sake.

As a side note, I've felt nuno and paulo's offerings have got better year on year. Madeira was interesting to learn, but not enjoyable to play. Panamax was good, at the right player count, but a little long and the stock market was undercooked. Still very enjoyable though. Nippon on the other hand was surprisingly accessible, yet presented lots of interesting decisions and the pacing was phenomenal. They seem to be getting better at distilling the interesting decisions into a tighter package each year. Madeira had too much of everything (which is what some people like about it).


I liked Panamax, except that the most fun part of the game (loading ships and pushing them through) was not what won you the game.


I wouldn't exactly say that it doesn't win you the game. Sensible investment is important, but not as vital as in say Imperial or Chicago express. When I played, I was really quite effective at A) moving my stuff through the canal. B) moving my stuff into a lock just before somebody else moved stuff through the canal and that's what helped me to win (my one and only game).
 
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Curt Carpenter
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DAAAN wrote:
Madeira was interesting to learn, but not enjoyable to play.

Tastes vary, of course. Many folks, including me, love to play it. It's a home run with me and some of my gaming group who tend to like meaty Euros.
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Morten K
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DicingWithDearth wrote:
Tigris & Euphrates. It's currently in print - assuming that FF haven't screwed up the rules.

There's no hand-holding or catch-up mechanism at all. If you fall behind other players may be less likely to attack you but they still might if it's in their interests or if they don't believe that you've fallen behind.

Also, it is a truly excellent game.


It is! And so is Hansa Teutonica. I agree with Splotter and Wallace games as well. Perhaps Wir sind das Volk! if you want a two-player.
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Shane Larsen
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Container, if you can get ahold of a copy without taking a loan.
Indonesia
Planet Steam

+1 Kanban
+1 Brass, but you might want to wait for the new edition Martin has promised.



 
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HenningK
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Agricola is (in)famous and both loved and hated for being harsh on the players.

Myrmes also makes you struggle if you misplay. The theme is something special, and it even has some sort of network building (if you abstract a little).
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Moai

Near-zero luck. The most vicious and unforgiving Euro I own.

I usually dislike blind bidding games and I'm always nervous about playing this one. Still remains on my shelf through multiple cullings.
 
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Lawrence
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+1 for Agricola

I generally feel pretty stressed, just figuring out how to make sure my people are fed, let alone scoring actual VP.
 
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Byron Grimes
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+1 for Hansa Teutonica
In the Year of the Dragon
and, if you can find it, Walnut Grove certainly doesn't hold your hand. It hates you, and you will love it. Because that's the way it is in Minnesota(roughly the type of setting for the game).
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