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Subject: Multiple Decks rss

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Matt Kay
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So a few weeks ago, I got myself the Breakin' Atmo deck for my copy. I had forgotten to remove it from my Amazon Wish List and a client picked it up for me as a 'thank you gift' for services rendered.

I was considering incorporating both decks into my card stacks, but with the duplication of certain items (Cortex Uplink, Nandi's Gun Collection) and crew (Elder Gommen, The Specialist) would it unbalance the game too much to do that?

Thoughts?
 
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Cal Rasmussen
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I personally wouldn't. I go by the rule of if they wanted more than one in the game they would have added it.
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Carl Hanson
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I would be more concerned with duplicating the Helmsmen and Mud Dog ATVs than the cards you listed. They both already come in multiples and carry two of the most important keywords in the game. But, even then, I don't think that adding those would necessarily break the game; it would just make it far easier to get Pilots and TRANSPORT while making Osiris and Regina more appealing supply decks.

This actually might be a good, low-cost solution to beefing up the supply decks to support large player counts (and keep the ships from dogpiling Persephone and the Space Bazaar).
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Matt Kay
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Thanks for that info folks. Others can feel free to chime in.

My regular gaming group came down on both sides of this issue. Jay, a purist, said no way. Dan, who know numbers and such, said it could decrease play time, because of the greater instances of item. Less time for someone looking for that particular keyword.

Jay owns a set of everything for this game, except the new ships Jetwash, Esmerelda, and Artful Dodger. He just got Kalidasa last week. But his copy is showing the signs of wear. We've been using it monthly since he bought it. And he uses it at least 2 other times per month, playing with his family.
 
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George Krubski
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The cards that would make me nervous are Head Goon, Merchant, and even Best in the House.

The ability to use Best in the House two times back to back could be very powerful, although that's probably the one that bothers me least.

Merchants aren't bad on their own, but the more you accumulate, the more you can side-step conventional work and just find different ways to look for Cargo to sell.

The Head Goon is potentially the most abusive. With a third Merc - and Jayne and Stitch are right there - you've got 4 Fight, 4 Talk (plus whatever the other gun gives you). Admittedly, you can pull this same trick with the Head Goon at Meridian, but at least you have to work for it.

Personally, if I doubled up on Breakin' Atmo it would be with the additional house rule that no Crew can have more than 2 Merchants or more than one Head Goon. Thus, they are easier to find, but you can't stack the deck too badly.
 
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Carl Hanson
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I am about to completely derail this thread and start talking game theory with George. I apologize in advance and hope that you already have the anwers you wanted here. If not, speak up and we can take our conversation elsewhere if it takes over.

gwek wrote:
The cards that would make me nervous are Head Goon, Merchant, and even Best in the House.

The ability to use Best in the House two times back to back could be very powerful, although that's probably the one that bothers me least.


Could be, but this wouldn't keep me up at night; and it's certainly not worth camping on Silverhold to search for.

gwek wrote:
Merchants aren't bad on their own, but the more you accumulate, the more you can side-step conventional work and just find different ways to look for Cargo to sell.


I don't see this as a bad thing. Searching for salvage ops, or even the more reliable Harrow cargo runs, have proven to be too slow to compete with just doing jobs (I have yet to see someone try this with the Twins, which the Merchant can't help with anyway). Firefly shines with more workable strategies, so this would have to be demonstrated as a problem before I get stressed about it.

gwek wrote:
The Head Goon is potentially the most abusive. With a third Merc - and Jayne and Stitch are right there - you've got 4 Fight, 4 Talk (plus whatever the other gun gives you). Admittedly, you can pull this same trick with the Head Goon at Meridian, but at least you have to work for it.


I didn't think of this. That is pretty strong and something to be worried about. Especially since the Head Goon is at Silverhold, which is already loaded with the best Mercs. This could be a problem if they come up in quick succession, maybe the best combo in the game.

Are there any other supply deck combos that add this much value and come from the same supply deck?

Two-fry and his Carbine come to mind. I don't think it is quite this good, but it is a strong one-two. But they almost never come up together and probably aren't worth digging for.

Simon and River can give you 5 total skills some of the time, and four all of the time; plus Simon's medic checks and FANCY DUDS. Of course, they are not as predicitable (you can't count on what you get from River) and are both Wanted and Moral; so I don't think they are as good as two Head-Goons--but they don't need the third wheel to trigger and trump multiple Misbehaves (including the two unwinnable cards).

Early's Datascope and Pistol (on Jubal) can make a devastating Bounty Hunting combo, but may be so specific (and dedicated bounty hunting so unpredictible) that they don't stack up.

Cortland and Sheydra from Meridian are maybe comparable. Together they let you turn a Fight test into a Negotiate test, then use Bribes on it. With the right pieces around them providing Keywords and tech, you can funtionally ignore two of the three skills. Plus they both provide useful Professions and Shydra has FANCY DUDS.

I think that these types of combos are good because you can't realy spend the time searching for them (especially in the original five supply decks with expansions); but if you do happen to get them they will make a game memorable.

gwek wrote:
Personally, if I doubled up on Breakin' Atmo it would be with the additional house rule that no Crew can have more than 2 Merchants or more than one Head Goon. Thus, they are easier to find, but you can't stack the deck too badly.


I'm not a big fan of these kinds of fiddly rules. I would rather either play with the correct deck counts or deal with the games that the big combos happen. But, maybe something like this is needed if you change the expectations by doubling up on some expansions.

I still think that this would make a good solution for the limited supplies in 6+ player games. With that many players, the added Pilots and keywords will help keep everyone in the game. And with so many players digging through the big decks, any given player is much less likely to get one of the troublesome comobos.
 
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Matt Kay
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turambur wrote:
I am about to completely derail this thread and start talking game theory with George. I apologize in advance and hope that you already have the anwers you wanted here. If not, speak up and we can take our conversation elsewhere if it takes over.


Derail away!

We follow a general rule of that you can't stack any benefit twice. If you have two scrappers with Dirty Leech, you can still only benefit from the ability once per encounter/job/etc. Having the duplicates is for when the Reavers show up, or to keep other people from having the characters.

The sole exception to his is the Big Damn Heroes cards for the extra $100 for proceeding. In our group, if a person manages to actually score two of them, then the low probability of that occurring is worth the benefit.
 
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George Krubski
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I'll try to stay focused on the topic at hand and trim out some of the response (primarily the stuff that I agree with in a noncontroversial way).

turambur wrote:
gwek wrote:
Merchants aren't bad on their own, but the more you accumulate, the more you can side-step conventional work and just find different ways to look for Cargo to sell.


I don't see this as a bad thing. Searching for salvage ops, or even the more reliable Harrow cargo runs, have proven to be too slow to compete with just doing jobs (I have yet to see someone try this with the Twins, which the Merchant can't help with anyway). Firefly shines with more workable strategies, so this would have to be demonstrated as a problem before I get stressed about it.


I don't disagree, but I guess my concern here is that a workable strategy for one player is at the expense of the other players. Honestly, I think the Merchants are already among the best crew in the game (for their skills, flexible use, and lack of either Moral or Wanted), so collecting a whole gaggle of them makes my head hurt.

I may be overstating the concern because they're among my favorite "no muss" crew.

On the Head Goon...

turambur wrote:

...

Are there any other supply deck combos that add this much value and come from the same supply deck?

...


I agree that there are some powerful combos, but most come with bigger drawbacks (Wanted or Moral). Admittedly, two Head Goons needs a third Merc to be powerful, but when you have options like Jayne, Stitch, or Enforcers, who cares? Head Goon/Head Goon/Enforcer (with a Gun) = 5 Fight + 5 Talk for $800, which I believe is one of the most cost effective skill combos in the game (and, I'm fairly certain, the single most cost effective one without worrying about pesky Moral or Wanted).

I think Sheydra/Cortland may be the most powerful combo otherwise, but Sheydra herself is Moral, and they're also balanced by being on Meridian (one of the many elements that makes me truly appreciate the thought and attention the game designers put into all those). In a sense, they are the big reward (or one of them at least) for heading to Meridian.

turambur wrote:
I'm not a big fan of these kinds of fiddly rules. I would rather either play with the correct deck counts or deal with the games that the big combos happen. But, maybe something like this is needed if you change the expectations by doubling up on some expansions.


Personally, I agree. I was just offering a relatively easy fix to the problems that I see.

turambur wrote:
I still think that this would make a good solution for the limited supplies in 6+ player games. With that many players, the added Pilots and keywords will help keep everyone in the game. And with so many players digging through the big decks, any given player is much less likely to get one of the troublesome comobos.


Agreed. And I think the idea of limited supplies gets to one of my secondary concerns with the Merchants: There are very few resources in the game that blatantly reward/encourage "collection" (one Mechanic on your crew is just as good as six). Admittedly, though, Merchants are not a vital part of the game, so perhaps it doesn't matter.
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Matt Kay
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gwek wrote:

turambur wrote:
I still think that this would make a good solution for the limited supplies in 6+ player games. With that many players, the added Pilots and keywords will help keep everyone in the game. And with so many players digging through the big decks, any given player is much less likely to get one of the troublesome comobos.


Agreed. And I think the idea of limited supplies gets to one of my secondary concerns with the Merchants: There are very few resources in the game that blatantly reward/encourage "collection" (one Mechanic on your crew is just as good as six). Admittedly, though, Merchants are not a vital part of the game, so perhaps it doesn't matter.


Our group that meets regularly for 'board game night', is almost always 6 and rarely 5. We're a group of D&D players that use board game night to give our DM, whoever it is, a monthly break. Our group is 8, with usually 2 of the folks then doing date night with their wives.

So our Firefly games are usually like this:

6 players: 80%
5 players: 15%
4 players: 4%
3 players: 1%

If we can't get at least 3 folks together, then we trash the whole night. That's happened twice in the last year. And one of those instances, was when one of our player's wives had a baby. The other was a bad snowstorm at the beginning of the year.
 
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Carl Hanson
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gwek wrote:
turambur wrote:
gwek wrote:
Merchants aren't bad on their own, but the more you accumulate, the more you can side-step conventional work and just find different ways to look for Cargo to sell.


I don't see this as a bad thing. Searching for salvage ops, or even the more reliable Harrow cargo runs, have proven to be too slow to compete with just doing jobs (I have yet to see someone try this with the Twins, which the Merchant can't help with anyway). Firefly shines with more workable strategies, so this would have to be demonstrated as a problem before I get stressed about it.


I don't disagree, but I guess my concern here is that a workable strategy for one player is at the expense of the other players. Honestly, I think the Merchants are already among the best crew in the game (for their skills, flexible use, and lack of either Moral or Wanted), so collecting a whole gaggle of them makes my head hurt.


Please explain more here. I don't quite follow on how more options is necessarily bad for the players that don't pursue it, unless that option is so overpowered as to be the only winning option; which we have no reason to think would be the case.

gwek wrote:

On the Head Goon...

turambur wrote:

...

Are there any other supply deck combos that add this much value and come from the same supply deck?

...


I agree that there are some powerful combos, but most come with bigger drawbacks (Wanted or Moral). Admittedly, two Head Goons needs a third Merc to be powerful, but when you have options like Jayne, Stitch, or Enforcers, who cares? Head Goon/Head Goon/Enforcer (with a Gun) = 5 Fight + 5 Talk for $800, which I believe is one of the most cost effective skill combos in the game (and, I'm fairly certain, the single most cost effective one without worrying about pesky Moral or Wanted).

That is punishing. I can't really argue much with that. The only question is whether it is game breaking considering how thick that supply deck is at this point.

gwek wrote:
I think Sheydra/Cortland may be the most powerful combo otherwise, but Sheydra herself is Moral, and they're also balanced by being on Meridian (one of the many elements that makes me truly appreciate the thought and attention the game designers put into all those). In a sense, they are the big reward (or one of them at least) for heading to Meridian.


But with relative size of those decks, and the ability to start at Meridian and mine the deck at your leisure, I don't know if the remoteness is that big on an issue. Maybe if there were some rule that players had to start on the main board the remoteness would be more pronouced.


gwek wrote:
Agreed. And I think the idea of limited supplies gets to one of my secondary concerns with the Merchants: There are very few resources in the game that blatantly reward/encourage "collection" (one Mechanic on your crew is just as good as six). Admittedly, though, Merchants are not a vital part of the game, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

All of the Scrappers reward collection and work well with the other (non-Wash) pilots and mechanics at the Space Bazaar and Persephone. They are also in a similar class as the merchants in that they encourage strategies that try to circumvent doing jobs to some extent. But you are right, there are not many mechanisms in this game that encourage duplication of kewords or professions outside of these.

That may also be part of the issue with the Head Goon--he encourages you to stack Mercs. Of course, mercs are built to punish you for having too many of them rather than reward you (and the Head Goon even helps to dodge that drawback), so they may have been intentionally built to be different.
 
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George Krubski
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turambur wrote:
Please explain more here. I don't quite follow on how more options is necessarily bad for the players that don't pursue it, unless that option is so overpowered as to be the only winning option; which we have no reason to think would be the case.


I guess I'm viewing the idea of 3-4 Merchants and trying to collect Cargo to see (either with Burgess, or via Salvage Ops, etc) as more of a manufactured add-on strategy than something endemic to the game. In the final analysis, there's probably little difference between that and the Scrappers, but it just strikes me as somehow different.

Unlike most strategies, this would be sort of a zero sum game - EVERYONE can boost their Smuggling and Shipping Jobs by being Solid with Harrow, for example, but if I have 3 Merchants, it means you don't. I've owned that strategic option.

I still don't think I'm clearly expressing my thoughts here, which probably means it's time to back away.

turambur wrote:
That is punishing. I can't really argue much with that. The only question is whether it is game breaking considering how thick that supply deck is at this point.


I suppose it also depends on what expansions you're using. Throwing in a second dose of Breakin' Atmo means less with Kalidasa and PBH in the mix than if they're not.

Is it a game-breaking combo? I would say no, given that the game designers DO allow for it to exist, but it DOES change the balance of power, potentially. I mean, I've seen a lot of games where River and Simon have been used together, and I personally don't think they're broken... but if a player lucks into River and Simon on turn 1, then Shepherd Book by turn 3, you can bet that person has an edge. Same thing here (but possibly to a larger degree) if someone finds two Head Goons.

Again, it depends on the overall game. I'd had to be on the receiving end of that combo in player vs. player.

turambur wrote:
But with relative size of those decks, and the ability to start at Meridian and mine the deck at your leisure, I don't know if the remoteness is that big on an issue. Maybe if there were some rule that players had to start on the main board the remoteness would be more pronouced.


Again, the equation shifts with each release. Even though you have relative leisure time to farm a smaller deck at Meridian, pre-Kalidasa, the very idea that you had to plow through Rim Space early on was a detriment. But now, all of space is dangerous, so my thinking probably hasn't caught up yet.

turambur wrote:
All of the Scrappers reward collection and work well with the other (non-Wash) pilots and mechanics at the Space Bazaar and Persephone.


While this is true, I don't think I've ever seen anyone get two Scrappers (unless it was one from each planet).

turambur wrote:
They are also in a similar class as the merchants in that they encourage strategies that try to circumvent doing jobs to some extent. But you are right, there are not many mechanisms in this game that encourage duplication of kewords or professions outside of these.


To me, the difference is also that Scrappers only have 1 skill point. For the same price, a Merchant allows you to double up on your skills (and therefore flexibility).

Throw in some piece of gear that says "Scrappers in your crew get +1 Tech each" and folks will be collecting them like their Pokemon!

turambur wrote:
That may also be part of the issue with the Head Goon--he encourages you to stack Mercs. Of course, mercs are built to punish you for having too many of them rather than reward you (and the Head Goon even helps to dodge that drawback), so they may have been intentionally built to be different.


Agreed. Mercs and, to a lesser extent, Hill Folk, don't follow the same rules as other careers... but they also don't offer the same types of bonuses.
 
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Darin Bolyard
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Just getting in on the discussion. I typically avoid playing 6+ player games of Firefly, but I imagine having extra copies of supplies would mitigate some of the scarcity at higher player counts.
 
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Troy Terrell
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I've played several games with 5+ payers, but I never thought about doubling up on any card sets. I will say that with each expansion, one card in particular has gotten more and more rare -- cry baby.

As for the original question of what to do with the extra set of BA cards, my suggestion would be to use them as proxies in the decks for some of the fan expansion material. I recently got an extra BA set for just this purpose. So I intend to put a little mark on each extra card and then, as they are revealed during the game, replace them with a home-printed fan card.
 
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George Krubski
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At the risk of sounding cocky, thanks to the dedication and hard work of a few folks on these boards, we're actually very close to having printable customs that are tough to distinguish from standard cards. I'm doing one final printer test and then I'll be making the first batch of 18 cards (roughly half of ACES & EIGHTS) available.
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Matt Kay
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I like the healthy discussion here.

On the whole, I think I am going to choose to incorporate the cards into the decks. My reasons:

Our gang is almost always 6 people when getting together for this game. Myself, my son, Dan, Jay, John, Ed. Sometimes John, or Dan, or my son don't feel like playing a given night, but that is exceedingly rare.

Jay who owns our primary copy, his copy is really getting beat up after using it for almost 3 solid years 3 to 4 times a month. We need to bring in a fresh copy.

None of us have studied the game to a depth to which we maximize combos or sets. Oh, Jay will sit and mine a deck to get Kaylee, or Inara, or Jayne or Zoe. Depending on what he needs. But he mostly does that to drag on the game too.

But the rest of us, once we have something that works, we move on and head to our goals. So that means for most of us, less sitting around trying to dig up mechanics or pilots, or getting the right keywords.

I am debuting the game for a new group of folks, hopefully in two weeks. If not, then in January. They will never have played the game, and will not know what is where to work out advantages in the game. Plus I will be using paper overlays to use extra 'Firefly' ships instead of the Walden or Interceptor. For new folks, the strategy changes on these two ships will be unnecessary complications for learning the game. (Yes, I will also use copies of standard Firefly engines as well.)
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George Krubski
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Have fun! Let us know how it goes. If you see any crazy power combinations, hopefully they won't come as a surprise based on all the discussion here!

Honestly, I don't think there's much that's too abusive, and if you've got players who are happy to grab and run rather than try to maximize, the likelihood of it happening should be fairly small.

Out of curiosity, if you guys play so often, has anyone invested in the expansions?
 
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Matt Kay
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Jay has all of them. He just picked up Kalidasa about a week ago. I have all but Kalidasa, and the BDH cards. I am planning on getting Kalidasa after Thanksgiving when my birthday rolls around.

I figure the BDH effects can be 'house-ruled' without actually needing the cards.
 
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With as much as you play, I strongly suggest sleeving your cards. It can be a little pricey for this game, and makes storage more challenging; but it will extend the life of your game by years. Any standard CCG sleeves will work (clear, of course), but I went with Arcane Tinmen's Dragon Sleeves. They aren't the most affordable, but they are good quality, shuffle well, and come with handy tuck-boxes that can be used to store the sleeved cards.
 
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Matt Kay
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Seeing how Jay's cards have become, I agree. However, I doubt I will be able to afford this. Jay does use his game 3x the amount I will. Mine has not actually been used yet. Jay, our purist, had insisted we play with all the expansions, and is not keen on mixing up our sets.

With some luck, I will get to break mine in next month, on the 15th, and if not, then maybe the 27th, at my wife's family Christmas party.
 
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rpgwizzzzzard wrote:
Seeing how Jay's cards have become, I agree. However, I doubt I will be able to afford this.


The main point of sleeves is that they are much cheaper to replace than the cards themselves. Okay, nine hundred sleeves won't exactly be cheap, but it should be comparable to the cost of an expansion - if you expect to get enough play to consider retiring the game, then it's cheaper to pay the cost of a second Kalidasa or Blue Sun than to buy a new copy of everything (assuming it's available at that point).
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rmsgrey wrote:
rpgwizzzzzard wrote:
Seeing how Jay's cards have become, I agree. However, I doubt I will be able to afford this.


The main point of sleeves is that they are much cheaper to replace than the cards themselves. Okay, nine hundred sleeves won't exactly be cheap, but it should be comparable to the cost of an expansion - if you expect to get enough play to consider retiring the game, then it's cheaper to pay the cost of a second Kalidasa or Blue Sun than to buy a new copy of everything (assuming it's available at that point).


This is exactly why I sleeved my copy. I would not be pleased if this game became too worn to play in a few years after the game and/or expansions go out of print.
 
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All this talk of sleeving and card conservation reminds me of my cousin, who has a minor obsession with Dragon Master (not to mention the related-by-theme-and-artist Dark Tower). Over time and eBay, he has acquired multiple copies of the game, so we now have a playing deck, a pristine deck, and a few back up decks... just in case!
 
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gwek wrote:
All this talk of sleeving and card conservation reminds me of my cousin, who has a minor obsession with Dragon Master (not to mention the related-by-theme-and-artist Dark Tower). Over time and eBay, he has acquired multiple copies of the game, so we now have a playing deck, a pristine deck, and a few back up decks... just in case!


I learned my lessons on sleeving from my Magic days. A few (or more) dollars on sleeves in that economy could save you hundreds down the road.
 
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George Krubski
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I never played Magic but I knew folks who did, and I thought the amount of money they spent on it was crazy!

Of course, it wasn't long before I was willing to shell out 75 bucks for a tiny plastic Darth Revan.

I suppose it's all relative, though. I didn't get into Star Wars minis until I was gainfully employed, and with some pocket money, whereas my just-post-college Magic friends were lucky to afford noodles for dinner.
 
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