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A Game of Thrones: The Card Game (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: some question rss

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clarence
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Maester Aemon - When a nights watch would be killed, kneel him to save it.

Ser Waymar Royce - When he's killed, discard 1 card at random from each opponent.

How does the above both interact with each other.
Can Ser Waymar Royce ability trigger and kneel Maester Aemon to save it?

Jousting Contest - Each player cannot declare more than 1 character as attacker or defender in each challenge.

Jon Snow - While standing he is considered participating in each challenge in which you control another Night's watch character.

If you declare 1 character as attacker. Jon Snow is considering participate in attack right because you only declare 1 character for Jousting Contest.
 
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Barry Miller
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whipko wrote:
Maester Aemon - When a nights watch would be killed, kneel him to save it.
Ser Waymar Royce - When he's killed, discard 1 card at random from each opponent.
How does the above both interact with each other.

This is a good example of understanding the meaning of "would". Look at page 23 of the Rules Reference. You'll see that the word "would" is used to define an Interrupt ability which has a higher priority than an Interrupt ability that lacks the word "would". IOW, an interrupt with the word "would" has timing priority over an interrupt without the word.

So for your question, Maester Aemon's "would be killed" ability is resolved before Ser Royce's "is killed" ability. Therefor if you choose to resolve Maester Aemon's ability upon Ser Waymar Royce being killed, then Ser Royce would NOT be killed, therefore negating Ser Waymar's ability.


whipko wrote:
Can Ser Waymar Royce ability trigger and kneel Maester Aemon to save it?

Am not sure exactly what you're asking, though I think I answered this question above. But if you're asking, "can both Character's abilities be triggered"?... No, not if you're using Maester Aemon's ability to save Royce. If you're saving Royce then his ability does NOT trigger.


whipko wrote:
Jousting Contest - Each player cannot declare more than 1 character as attacker or defender in each challenge.

Where did you get this from? This isn't the case at all. You can declare as many characters as you want, as an attacker or a defender.
(Edit: He's talking about the "Jousting Contest" plot card which simply didn't occur to me. See a few posts below - this question still needs to answered with authority.)

whipko wrote:
Jon Snow - While standing he is considered participating in each challenge in which you control another Night's watch character.
If you declare 1 character as attacker. Jon Snow is considering participate in attack right because you only declare 1 character for Jousting Contest.

Even if you declare only one attacking character (other than Jon Snow), then, "Yes", Jon Snow is considered to also be attacking in that challenge.

And BTW, thank you for including the text from each card in your question. Many people don't bother to do that, but it helps! Thanks!



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clarence
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Yes. That is the question i am asking. Thanks.

Regards to Jousting Contest and Jon snow.

That is my 2nd question.
 
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clarence
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whipko wrote:
Jousting Contest - Each player cannot declare more than 1 character as attacker or defender in each challenge.

bgm1961 wrote:
Where did you get this from? This isn't the case at all. You can declare as many characters as you want, as an attacker or a defender.


That is Jousting Contest Plot card in play.
 
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Barry Miller
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whipko wrote:
That is Jousting Contest Plot card in play.

Oh! Geeze, don't I feel like an idiot. I assumed you were asking about the Jousting Format of play!

Anyway, this is a good question which I'll have to defer to the rest of the community.

At first I thought it'd be easy to answer as you're not declaring Jon Snow as an attacker. The card's ability, which is a Constant Ability (meaning it is NOT optional) automatically injects Jon as a participating attacker as long as you've already declared another attacker. In essence, you're not declaring him, the card is.

BUT, when you look up the definition of "Participating" in the Rules Reference, it says that, "Any character that has been declared as an attacker/defender for a challenge is considered participating."
There is no mention that I could find that defines any other way for a character to become a participating character. It infers that to be participating requires being declared.

One could rules-lawyer this to death... I think my "easy" answer makes the most sense and is how I'd play it. But the "rules lawyer" paragraph above does give one something to ponder!

Again, I'll be interested in how others answer this!

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Rizo Rizov
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And I bought this game thinking as it has tournamets it will have less fuzy rules than Cosmic Encounter shake

May be if declaring is kneeling and Jon Snow isn't declared and knelt his strength is counted for the challenge even with this plot in play. But I am noob so still waiting for real answer.
 
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Helmut Hohberger
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I don't think it's fuzzy at all. I think it's very clear and logical.

bgm1961 wrote:

At first I thought it'd be easy to answer as you're not declaring Jon Snow as an attacker. The card's ability, which is a Constant Ability (meaning it is NOT optional) automatically injects Jon as a participating attacker as long as you've already declared another attacker.


And you have the right of it there. But then you trip yourself up by overthinking things.

bgm1961 wrote:

In essence, you're not declaring him, the card is.


No, it isn't. Try to be as strict as possible when it comes to game terminology. The card is not "declaring" Jon Snow, either "in essence" or otherwise. When the play restrictions of his ability are met, Jon Snow is participating in the challenge as per that ability. He is not "declared" as an attacker, though, which is why he just doesn't interact with Jousting Contest at all.

bgm1961 wrote:
BUT, when you look up the definition of "Participating" in the Rules Reference, it says that, "Any character that has been declared as an attacker/defender for a challenge is considered participating."
There is no mention that I could find that defines any other way for a character to become a participating character. It infers that to be participating requires being declared.

But it doesn't, though, does it?

Consider this example:
"Any person who bought a car at a licensed Ford dealer and paid full sticker price in cash is the legal owner of the car."
You wouldn't infer from that sentence that the only way to become the legal owner of a car is to pay full sticker price in cash at a licensed Ford dealer. Same thing here. The part you quoted says that declared characters are considered participating, nothing else. You're right, the rules reference guide doesn't specifically mention that characters can be made to participate in challenges though card effects instead of being declared. But that's not surprising - card effects do a lot of things that aren't specifically mentioned in the RR.

Declaring attackers and declaring defenders are core game mechanics that happen at specific points in the timing structure, and are explained in detail in the RR, page 27-28. Basically, to declare attackers/defenders, you designate any number of your standing characters with the appropriate challenge icon and kneel them. This basic mechanic is what is modified by the Jousting Contest plot: With that plot, you're limited to one eligible character when declaring attackers/defenders.

Jon Snow just doesn't come into this at all.

EDIT: Not the best choice of words, as aphynes has pointed out below. So I'll rephrase:
Jon Snow's ability is entirely unaffected by the plot Jousting Contest.


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Lytic Phage
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Ratatoskr72 wrote:


Jon Snow just doesn't come into this at all.




Well, given the question, that might not have been the best ending .

Ratatoskr72, as usual, is entirely correct. But the end result is that Jon Snow *does* come into it (this challenge) ;p
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Helmut Hohberger
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Ratatoskr72 wrote:


Jon Snow just doesn't come into this at all.

Jon Snow's ability is entirely unaffected by the plot Jousting Contest.


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James Ludlow
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horde wrote:
And I bought this game thinking as it has tournamets it will have less fuzy rules than Cosmic Encounter
The rules are pretty solid. Most of the questions in this forum come from people who haven't read them. And then there are threads like this one where it's a fine detail of the rules that was overlooked, but once explained becomes quite clear.


Quote:
May be if declaring is kneeling and Jon Snow isn't declared and knelt his strength is counted for the challenge even with this plot in play. But I am noob so still waiting for real answer.

Kneeling has nothing to do with this question. There are characters who do not kneel to attack who would absolutely be subject to the Jousting Contest restriction.

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Barry Miller
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Ratatoskr72 wrote:
I don't think it's fuzzy at all. I think it's very clear and logical. ... And you have the right of it there.

Helmut, thank you for helping me to remove my blinders on this one. You're absolutely correct of course. After presenting my "easy" answer, I thought that to be too easy so I wondered what the Rules say about the state of a character being "declared". I really thought that was the key to answer. After all, Jousting Contest does focus on the act of declaring. Oops.

Thinking to myself last night: Yes, we all know how a player "declares" a participating character, but what about other possible card or game effects which may cause a character to be declared? What else does it mean to be "declared"? So I went down the "declaring" rabbit hole!


Actually I'm very surprised, given how FFG took great care to define just about every other term that can possibly be used in this game, that they didn't include an entry for "Declare/Declared" in the Rules Reference! And as you may've seen in my other posts, I love the Rules Reference for the clarity it provides - except in this case. So I made the mistake of venturing into the world of drawing inferences born by omissions. So your reply is very helpful!

Ratatoskr72 wrote:
But then you trip yourself up by overthinking things.

Ah, the story of my life... I overthink everything! As a young lad my father drilled into me the notion that life is complicated and complex. So I ventured out the door predisposed to look at everything in its most complicated form while totally obverlooking the most simple solutions. Ughh.


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