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Subject: [WIP] FRESH Big Time - 1980's Wall Street - PNP AVAILABLE rss

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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] FRESH So Big Time - 80's Commodity - 18 Card Contest Entry

80's Wall Street Game

2-5 Players
20 Minutes


DOWNLOADS
US Letter Print n Play PDF - Low-ink great for home printers, including b&w laser printers.
A4 Print n Play PDF - Low-ink great for home printers, including b&w laser printers.
Rules PDF - Rules document, sized for 5x3.5 inch back and front on one page.
Scoresheet and Form PDF - Beta-tester feedback form and scoresheet.


Beta-tester Feedback Google Form

FreshBigTime.com


♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫ FRESH Big Time 80's Mixtape ♪♫ YouTube playlist!






An earlier version of this game was in the 18 Card MicroGame Contest Geeklist [2015] with a bunch of great little games of all types.
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Tim Davidson
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Okay, I've got an over-all idea for a game. This is sort of an idea I've had for awhile, although it's not really original at all. I know what I want the game to feel like, and be like, but I don't know exactly how to make it happen.

I want to fit it in 18 cards for the 18 card contest. I'm not completely sure how to do that.

Look and Feel

I have some initial card designs.

- Heavy 80's style and colors.
- Very materialistic.
- Inspired by Patrick Nagel pop art.
- I also want it more Wall Street too.
- Capture that cut-throat, materialistic, nihilistic, all that matters is money and style feeling.

Gameplay

- The game will be commodity trading and speculation.
- The "stocks" will be things like: Kicks, Tunes, Wheels, Electronics.
- My favorite part of Catan is the first part -- the initial placement. I want to capture that somehow. Use cards to create a random visualizations of commodity chances. Players then get to choose which commodity mixes to invest in.
- From there, each turn players earn commodities randomly. Then they trade and re-position.
- The ultimate goal is to earn the most.
- Hoping to handle 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 players.

I havn't figured out exactly how to do this. Would love some feedback and ideas on how to fit this in 18 cards?
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
I figured it out... It crossed daylight savings time between the first post and second post! That how my second post is dated 50 min before I started the thread! It even jumped down in the WIP thread list.
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Tom Langille
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
Are you allowed to use markers if so you could do something like sail to India.
 
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
tubulidendtata wrote:
Are you allowed to use markers if so you could do something like sail to India.
The contest only allows 18 cards and a rules sheet. I like the limitation because it's the easiest to print, making it the most accessible way to make a game. You can use other cards as markers, like the corner of the card can point.

I'm realizing that either way it's going to take 3 - 5 cards for each player to mark their commitidy counts by lining up numbers on cards. So 18 cards can't handle more than 2 players. Perhaps it'll be expandable to 4 players by printing twice.

I'm realizing this makes trades awkward. In Catan you simply trade cards, but that requires several more cards. Having players trade using just cards lining up to numbers will be super mistake prone.
 
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
You can cut up a card or two for tokens. I think I'm going to have to for this game.

I have a crazy ides that are coming together.

In the mean time. Who's got more style?

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Charles Ward
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
TimST1E wrote:
You can cut up a card or two for tokens. I think I'm going to have to for this game.

I have a crazy ides that are coming together.

In the mean time. Who's got more style?



Fresh out of the corporate machine gun. Bang, Bang.
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Charles Ward
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
Jet - best name
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Koen Hendrix
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
This game needs to be called

FRESH


(and it should require players to listen to poolside.fm while playing )
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Koen Hendrix
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
TimST1E wrote:
- My favorite part of Catan is the first part -- the initial placement. I want to capture that somehow. Use cards to create a random visualizations of commodity chances. Players then get to choose which commodity mixes to invest in.
- From there, each turn players earn commodities randomly. Then they trade and re-position.
- The ultimate goal is to earn the most.
- Hoping to handle 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 players.

I havn't figured out exactly how to do this. Would love some feedback and ideas on how to fit this in 18 cards?

I really want to love this idea (that art style!), but this simply seems impossible to reduce to 18 cards without some insane component miniaturisation (i.e. cutting cards into tiny tokens or similar).

Keeping track of a player's resources = a few cards each?
Keeping track of a player's investments = a few cards each (in a catan-like setup)?
Random resource generation = at least half a dozen cards?

That might just work with 2 players, but generally 2-player resource trading is very hard to make interesting... the trade tends to favour one player slightly more than the other, so most trades will be refused. (Unless there is hidden information, maybe). 3 players really is the minimum I think.

Maybe you could try and focus on recreating that initial setup part of Catan as a standalone game? Just a few rounds of investing on some semi-random piles of resources, maybe combinations of open and closed cards.

Actually that sounds a bit like Camel Up: betting on an uncertain outcome, with potential profits decreasing as the race progresses (the outcome becoming more predictable).
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Eric Miller
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
TimST1E wrote:


Big Time


This was a hit for Peter Gabriel from 1986...

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter+gabriel/big+time_20107492...

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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
khendrix wrote:
I really want to love this idea (that art style!), but this simply seems impossible to reduce to 18 cards without some insane component miniaturisation (i.e. cutting cards into tiny tokens or similar).

Keeping track of a player's resources = a few cards each?
Keeping track of a player's investments = a few cards each (in a catan-like setup)?
Random resource generation = at least half a dozen cards?
Good points, I been doing this math a lot. First, if it just doesn't work out at just 18 cards then I'll go outside the contest. But I want to try to get it, at least initially, not just for the contest but because I think 18 cards is the right size to actually get people to PnP it, and potentially make it.

Collecting different commodity cards, and trading them, just won't fit. I'm thinking players will have to keep track of just 1 number, their cash. Players get paid in cash, instead of different commodities. Commodities and indirect trades will have to be represented by tokens, ~3 each. I think that's manageable in the 18 card limit.

I have some ideas coming together I can hopefully demonstrate soon.

khendrix wrote:
Maybe you could try and focus on recreating that initial setup part of Catan as a standalone game? Just a few rounds of investing on some semi-random piles of resources, maybe combinations of open and closed cards.
I don't follow you here, what do you mean by "combinations of open and closed cards"?

khendrix wrote:
Actually that sounds a bit like Camel Up: betting on an uncertain outcome, with potential profits decreasing as the race progresses (the outcome becoming more predictable).
I was looking at that game recently but haven't played it. I thick there was some similarities with how I want to do. But instead of a race track, it's a commodity map. I'lll take another close look.
 
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
khendrix wrote:
FRESH
Awesome, I'll add it to the list.

I'd go for it right away, except I think of the term as more associated with early 90's hiphop. Because of Will Smith. It's really from the 80's though, I don't actually remember the 80's.

There are a few good names this time. I want the one that most captures the feeling. I'll do a poll soon, hopefully get feed back from 80's people.


And I already have a playlist for this game! I didn't know about poolside.fm, that site is totally choice. That's the font I want for the logo too.
 
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
After rejecting a lot of directions, I have finally figured this game out.

The game will be comprised of:
- 2 cards which must be cut up to make tokens.
- 8 Commodity cards (city back)
- 8 Event cards (sunny back)

Each turn a player will draw commodity deck. Each players will that commodity, represented by a token. Event cards will be used to manipulate the earning of the commodity tokens, force trading of commodity tokens. Players will also manipulate the commodity deck itself to affect chances of earning certain commodities.

Commodities will be used in different combinations to buy victory points.

Token and Event Cards


I've also decided on a name! Basically combining two of the best suggestions:

FRESH So Big Time

Card Backs
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP] Untitled - 80's Themed Commodity Trading - 18 Card Contest Entry
Some of my artistic influences:

Patrick Nagel art! One of his most famous, this was used for the Duran Duran album Rio.


Akira's Neo Tokyo


Scarface's Conquered Miami


Patrick Bateman's Fake Wall Street Life
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Scott Douglas
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Re: [WIP] FRESH So Big Time - 80's Commodity - 18 Card Contest Entry
Love the idea. Haven't seen many 80's style games out there. You're nailing the aesthetic pretty good.
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
Okay, I have another brand new idea. This time it's good enough to post. It's not complete though, I need some help with the drafting mechanic.

Basically, 3 stocks are places randomly. A player has so much money to a lot between two stocks, using a single marker card. The value of the stock is manipulated by cards. The goal is to own the most.

I finally think this is almost working. I'm stuck at the mechanic for placing the stock value changes. I want the cards to optionally have events too, so you choose event or stock change. I want some wort of drafting mechanic, like a simplified version of Ticket To Ride drafting.



Here are all the cards as is now. Click to view the larger geekimage.



Love some feedback on this direction. It looks like it should make sense.

I am also changing the name to just FRESH Big Time. Losing the So.
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Eric Miller
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
TimST1E wrote:
Love some feedback on this direction. It looks like it should make sense.

I am also changing the name to just FRESH Big Time. Losing the So.


I think you made a good call on the name, "So" didn't seem to do anything...

What about double-sided cards? Maybe a uniform top-half with an event on the bottom half? Then the game could become a bit more rummy-like where I'm trying to corner the market on one (or more) of the stocks.

Hmmm... and now that I look even closer at the top image, I see the tracking mechanism you have, but I'm a bit confused on which of the two arrows on the commodity card (Tunes, for example) points to which number?

Could you put the numbers in the middle of the Round card? Then use the commodity cards to track that way? You could have one double-sided Round card and slide the three commodity cards up and down- like real markets. That gives you 3 more cards to put into play. And....

What about a bidding mechanism? If I have a hand of 3 cards (for example) I might bid to control Tunes based on what I have in my hand. I play cards to get my commodity up and/or keep my opponent down. So if my opponent can keep me from cornering the market, they win. If I keep their commodity from being at the top, I win. Yes, that means if the third commodity gets to the top (the one neither of us bid on) we both lose.

Having the events on the back of the card provides some information to your opponent. They may or may not be used, but like real markets, there is some information I know- how much I plan for it is my call.

Does that make sense? I hope it's not too far away from what you were envisioning.
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
Thanks for the feedback.

govmiller wrote:
Hmmm... and now that I look even closer at the top image, I see the tracking mechanism you have, but I'm a bit confused on which of the two arrows on the commodity card (Tunes, for example) points to which number?
I didn't fully explain the marker and stock value system last night.

The two dark marker cards are for Players 1 and 2. They each have 4x to split up between two stocks. Right now Player 1 has 1x Tunes and 3x Wheels. Player 2 has 2x Tunes and 2x Kicks. This is what I came up with for two players owning between 3 stocks with the fewest number of cards. The initial decision happening here is how much a player will commit to the shared middle stock.

In round 2 I doubled the amount to 8x. Giving you the chance to buy 4 more stock. This may be meaningless, just double the same, depending on how buying and selling stock works. Alternatively each player could cut off another marker that lets them buy more of one stock, including the third they didn't have access to.

The other 13 cards all have stock value changes on the bottom. These are what the player would play to rise their stocks and minus the opponents stock. Right now Kicks is 2, Tunes is 1, and Wheels is -1. Each stock may need an initial positive value.

The plan is for the other 13 cards to also have events at the top. This would also manipulate stock values, and facilitate the buying and selling of stocks (moving of player markers).

The main issue left (although nothing is final) is how the player selects and uses the 13 cards.

govmiller wrote:
What about a bidding mechanism? If I have a hand of 3 cards (for example) I might bid to control Tunes based on what I have in my hand. I play cards to get my commodity up and/or keep my opponent down. So if my opponent can keep me from cornering the market, they win. If I keep their commodity from being at the top, I win. Yes, that means if the third commodity gets to the top (the one neither of us bid on) we both lose.
I think you're describing something that fits. What do you mean by bidding? Blind?

What I picture from what you said: Each player has a small hand (~3) and each places cards face down in front of stocks at the same time, and/or places an event. They are flipped affecting the changes. But your efforts to -3 your opponents stock my be thwarted by their event card, switching your blind bids.

govmiller wrote:
Having the events on the back of the card provides some information to your opponent. They may or may not be used, but like real markets, there is some information I know- how much I plan for it is my call.
That might work, depending on exactly how seeing the numbers affects play. The 13 right now have uniform backs, I was thinking there would be situations when drawing or playing when you don't have any info on them.

One thing I wanted from the start with this game, was a way to value the stocks at the start and give players chance to speculate. That's sort of the central motivation to stock/trade/commodity games. I'd like more of that. Right now it's just how much is going to the shared stock.
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Eric Miller
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
TimST1E wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.


You're welcome! (I started my college days as a finance major- in the 80's...)

Now I think I see a bit of the issue- trying to track both PRICE of a commodity and OWNERSHIP of said commodity.

What if each player randomly chose one of the three commodities- that would be the market they seek to corner. (Or they could just agree.) The backs would all be the same, yet the fronts would have the market value that would be tracked via events. The events might shift the value of the commodity- and it might be in response to a recently played card. It might affect one commodity, or two or three.

The players would then manipulate the number of the commodity they own through the cards- and they can play cards to buy or sell a commodity or in response to events.

To make this work, you'd have to lose both "Round" cards. One could be cut into thirds (vertically so it's wider than the cards) and those would track the market value of each commodity- "ones" on one side, "+10" on the other. The other card could become a 14th game card...

After the 2nd round (maybe?) the person with the higher overall market value wins (# commodity x value) with a bonus if you control your commodity.

As you've indicated, I might actually LOSE some of my commodity to avoid a particular event. I might play a negative on myself so the associated event can't be triggered. Events would be played centrally, commodity increases/decreases on the player.

This could be a "draw, play, discard" idea. I could then draw from discard or top of the deck. Events played is a separate pile. Game (round?) ends when all cards are played on the players, or in the event stack.

Better? Worse? About the same?
 
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
govmiller wrote:
Now I think I see a bit of the issue- trying to track both PRICE of a commodity and OWNERSHIP of said commodity.
Exactly, this has been my whole dilemma in making a commodity trading game in 18 cards. I've toyed with a lot of ways of using markers, but without tokens or a lot of play-money it's limiting. This is looking the most elegant.

govmiller wrote:
... To make this work, you'd have to lose both "Round" cards. One could be cut into thirds (vertically so it's wider than the cards) and those would track the market value of each commodity- "ones" on one side, "+10" on the other. The other card could become a 14th game card...
Cutting into thirds like this would be a great way to save cards. I'd still like a way to keep track of ownership though... I want ownership of stock to have a little more variation. Instead of players just being team Tunes and team Wheels. For more of a stock market feel, and more nuance in manipulating values.

What I have now, the markers for players OWNERSHIP, and the cards themselves marking the PRICE, is the best I've come up with so far. 5 cards seems the minimal limit with nuance I want.

govmiller wrote:
As you've indicated, I might actually LOSE some of my commodity to avoid a particular event. I might play a negative on myself so the associated event can't be triggered. Events would be played centrally, commodity increases/decreases on the player.

This could be a "draw, play, discard" idea. I could then draw from discard or top of the deck. Events played is a separate pile. Game (round?) ends when all cards are played on the players, or in the event stack.
Yes. However the numbers are marked, this is the dynamic I want...

The game to be a cost benefit analysis based on how you play those cards. I was thinking more like drafting, but simply drawing a playing might work better. Maybe a hand of 2 or 3. (Actually, may thought of drafting basically meant both players share the same hand on table so not that different.)

Each turn, you play an event card or place a market change (which would remove the event card from the cycling deck).

I think there needs to be rules limiting how the market changes are placed, or else you'd go 100% for your closer stock, put all + on you, and all - on opponent.

It's this stuff that still needs to be figured out.


I do want this game to be 1 or 2 player. The 1 player variation will ideally work the same, except a little more random in stock changes. And I do think this over-all idea, 1980's wall street game, will work for a larger boardgame eventually.
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Eric Miller
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
I had been thinking that each of the game cards would have an event (overall market effect) and then would be a buy or sell of a specific commodity- blue for Tunes, red for Wheels, green for Kicks... So the color cards themselves would show ownership.

So yes, if I was trying to corner the market on Tunes, I'd want all those buy card (positive) to rack up my ownership. And then play events to get the price higher as well. I might not get both in the same round...

I might face a dilemma of buying more of my stock OR playing an event that would lower the value of my opponent's stock. In the first round, I might decide to buy- later rounds, screw my opponent...

And thinking in rounds, a second round would allow the events & buy/sell cards to circulate again- only the # of commodities I own would have to carry forward as the market would still hold. I think if you "win" in overall market value, you'll have the players pay more attention to commodities that are not their focus, just so they don't fall into a hole.

Well, that's plenty from me. Hopefully I've given you lots to think about (and some to throw away). But whatever you do, you MUST keep the artwork!!cool
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
govmiller wrote:
I might face a dilemma of buying more of my stock OR playing an event that would lower the value of my opponent's stock. In the first round, I might decide to buy- later rounds, screw my opponent....
Yes, this is the dynamic I'm looking for. I think we've got a basic system coming together, I just need to focus on the player having goals and decisions.

govmiller wrote:
Well, that's plenty from me. Hopefully I've given you lots to think about (and some to throw away). But whatever you do, you MUST keep the artwork!!cool
Thanks, very useful input!
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Tim Davidson
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Re: [WIP - New Idea Needs Feedback] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
Alright! This is it for pivots. Although I'm certain we'll see some changes over the next couple weeks, this is basically the game. I went back to what I think I did well with my other game Explore The Galaxy. In that game I used each card as 3 different cards, and combined them to create a lot of variation. The card layouts now look like that game, but the game works very differently.

For the 18 card contest this is a 1 or 2 player game, but I am hoping the game will eventually work for more players with more copies of the cards.

The Low Ink Cards PDF is ready to print!

RULES for v0.5

The game contains 2 cards that mark the values of the 4 stocks: Tunes, Kicks, Tech, and Wheels. The other 16 cards represent either ownership of 1 share of a stock, using the back of the card, or a change in the value of two of the stocks. Cards also have events which happen when value changes are played under a stock.

This is what values played under stocks look like. Kicks is worth 3 and Wheels is worth 7. A player owning 2 Kicks and 1 Wheels shares cards would have a point value of 3+3+7 = 13.



1. Start the game with the 2 stock cards places on table. Shuffled the other 16 and place face down (with he shares facing up). This will be called the deck. Each player draws 1 card from the bottom of the deck to make a hand.

2. Randomly select first player (if 2 player). Turns continue until the deck is empty. Each turn a player can choose to:

A) Take ownership of the top card of the deck as a share in the corresponding stock. Players place shares on the table in front of them. Do not look at the other side of the cards.

or

B) Draw the top card and add it two your hand. Player now has 2 cards in hand. The player must play 1 of their 2 cards beneath a stock, adding or subtracting to the stock values. Players must read and follow the event text.

In a 2 player game turns alternate between players. A 1 Player game alternates with the following step 3.

3. In a 1 player game random, after each turn the next 2 cards in the deck are played as stock values. The first plays under Tech and Wheels, and the second under Tunes and Kicks. The event text is ignored.

When the game is over in a 1 player game, the players final card in hand plays under Tunes and Kicks as a final value change.

4. The game is over when the deck is empty. (7 turns in a 2 player game, 5 turns 1 player.) Score points equal to each share a player owns multiplied by the corresponding stock's total value.

WINNING 2 PLAYER: Best of 3 games?

1 PLAYER: Wins with X amount of points. Needs more play-testing.

EDIT -- There will be a limit on the number of shares you can own. I havn't figured that out yet.

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Re: [WIP - Playable...] FRESH Big Time - 18 Card Contest Entry
Mathemitcally, it looking like 3 is the maximum number of share cards you can own, 1 or 2 player. This low number makes the sell cards more useful.
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