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Subject: Clairvoyance mechanic rss

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Burt Yaroch

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I mentioned in another post that we played our first 7p game of Mysterium last night. While the game was definitely well received by everyone, the clairvoyance voting mechanic received mixed reviews.

Those of us who have played the game 3p and 4p were all undecided on the voting mechanic going in, but when you throw 3 more players into the mix it really seemed to drag the game down. The tracker with it's miniscule tokens became way too crowded, having to move all these tokens after every round really shifted the focus from the actual gameplay; collecting the clairvoyance tokens, redistributing them...the whole process seemed like it was detracting from the gameplay.

I understand this mechanic was not in the original Polish version and was added into the game when the English version was published.

What do you all think of this mechanic? Did it add or detract from the game?

Thanks for the input!
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James
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I like it. It helps incentivize more discussion and interaction between the psychics, and gives you something to do, in a real gameplay sense, after you've made your own guess.
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Matt L.
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I've used clairvoyance in all the games we've played so far, it adds a little more interactivity but also a tacked-on goal.

I think overall it detracts, but in a minor way, I have seen it been something that people meta-game about "Hey I'll choose this wrong answer again so everyone can get some points" and that's not good.

I toy with the idea of dropping it and just letting everyone vote based on all 3 cards in the final vision, but I also try not to house-rule stuff.
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You can't handle the truth?
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LunaWolvesMan wrote:
I've used clairvoyance in all the games we've played so far, it adds a little more interactivity but also a tacked-on goal.

I think overall it detracts, but in a minor way, I have seen it been something that people meta-game about "Hey I'll choose this wrong answer again so everyone can get some points" and that's not good.

I toy with the idea of dropping it and just letting everyone vote based on all 3 cards in the final vision, but I also try not to house-rule stuff.
Don't consider it house ruling, consider it following one of the other (better) versions of the rules, which are readily available online.
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Matt L.
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crambaza wrote:
Don't consider it house ruling, consider it following one of the other (better) versions of the rules, which are readily available online.


While I do understand what you mean, it's hard to say "We're going to use a cross of these rules and the original Polish rules" and not sound like some boardgame hipster.

If the clairvoyance continues to create negative meta-game scenarios I'll just remove it and call it out as a house-rule. My biggest concern over house-rules or using rules from a different version is that I want people who play with me to know the rules if they play elsewhere but that's balanced against having a good game experience.
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Robert Stewart
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You could always just use the original Polish rules, with the English components.
 
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Tim S.
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I've heard a lot of negatives about the clairvoyance mechanic, but I just wanted to say that I think it ads a lot!

It makes everybody much more engaged with what the other players are going through. There's a reason to pay attention to everybody's choice and to help each other--not just for the overall cooperative goal, but in a more immediate near term way. And if you finish a turn or all three phases early, it gives you something to do instead of just waiting for everyone else to finish.

Biggest negative I see are those tiny rectangle markers that you have to move along the clairvoyance arch. In a game with such great components, these are surprisingly awkward. Everything else about it I like.

So I just wanted to add one more voice to the "Pro Clairvoyance" side!
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Mathue Faulkner
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LunaWolvesMan wrote:

I think overall it detracts, but in a minor way, I have seen it been something that people meta-game about "Hey I'll choose this wrong answer again so everyone can get some points" and that's not good.

I'm curious to hear about this point from a fan of the mechanism. I know that it won't be an issue in every group, but it seems like it could be an issue with a significant number of groups. Is bending the rule as simple as this comment makes it sound?
 
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James
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mfaulk80 wrote:
LunaWolvesMan wrote:

I think overall it detracts, but in a minor way, I have seen it been something that people meta-game about "Hey I'll choose this wrong answer again so everyone can get some points" and that's not good.

I'm curious to hear about this point from a fan of the mechanism. I know that it won't be an issue in every group, but it seems like it could be an issue with a significant number of groups. Is bending the rule as simple as this comment makes it sound?


I've found a really easy solution to this:

Don't do it.

If that doesn't work, I have a backup plan:

say "hey, that's kinda lame, don't do it" to the person who does that.

Although, the way it was written originally, I'd say that you could fix that particular instance with a simple house rule: You can't select the same guess more than once.
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Mauro Reis
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Played on Halloween with a group of 6 new players (plus myself), we lost the game because just one person got enough points to look at more than 1 card.

Everybody was pretty let down by that, up to that point it had been a very engaging game, but that last round was basically luck of the draw and made it look like all the previous work was for nothing.

I'm really considering just dropping that mechanic altogether and just revealing the 3 cards at the end and letting the players debate and pick a consensus. I think that it wouldn't make the game much easier given the randomness of the cards the ghost has to work with.

Just for the record, I played the game twice before: once with just my wife, so no clairvoyance there (BTW I wouldn't recommend this game as a 2-player), then a 4-player in which the 3 investigators did well but that's because I had perfect cards for the last round.
 
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Steven Townshend
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Eight plays so far with varied groups. Most have enjoyed the interactivity that the clairvoyance track brings. As for seeing all three clues, I've seen several instances in which those that see two clues get the correct answer while the third clue throws the players that see it in a different direction (usually due to the ghost trying to make due with 3 good cards out of 7).

I'm unclear as to how people are metagaming it since only the ghost knows the correct answers, and guessing what you believe to be incorrect is more likely to stall the group enough to lose the game--in our experience.
 
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Matt L.
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A contrived example of meta-gaming for clairvoyance :

Round 5 and Mike is the only player still actively getting clues, working on his item card. There are 3 items on the table for him to choose from.

Mike chooses item A and is incorrect.

Round 6, Mike receives another clue, options are items B & C. The team all agrees that the clues lead Mike towards item B, however the team realizes that everyone with a (X)token remaining can gain a point if Mike intentionally stalls for one more turn. The +1 point that Mike would get is not enough to move him forward for a threshold but +1 point for some other people at the table would move them towards seeing 2 or 3 cards.

So Mike chooses intentionally wrong (what is believed to be wrong) to gain points for the rest of the table.

Round 7 Mike chooses the only remaining option.

There's no risk of losing, just a non-interesting turn. In a case like this the clairvoyance mechanic has created an artificial reason to stall the game to gain points. This isn't fun for anyone, it makes sense within the scope of the game and trying to win, but it doesn't make sense for Mike, and it doesn't make sense within the idea of the game itself.
 
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Steven Townshend
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Thanks for the example, Matt. I haven't seen it happen in our 6 player games (medium difficulty) although I could see it happening in that specific instance you described. I think if I played with the same players over and over again it could potentially happen more, but so far it hasn't been worth the risk of losing. (I say this having lost 5/8 games we've played; two of the games we won were on medium and one was on easy, the first time we played).

In our games most of the time people have already used their tokens, the correct answer is unclear, and/or the ghost doesn't have good dream cards, and/or the time is about to run out on the clock. We've also found certain object cards to be more difficult to guess than character or location cards due to the limited information on the card.
 
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Nico
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LunaWolvesMan wrote:
Round 6, Mike receives another clue, options are items B & C. The team all agrees that the clues lead Mike towards item B


First, "the team agrees". If the team is wrong Mike will lose one hour and nobody will gain anything.
I agree that this example is valid but only in very narrow circumstances:
- x-tokens left
- not the last hour
- works only with the items, everything else has to be guessed corretcly before
- the team is absolutely sure that they have identified the correct card
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dennis bennett
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Just played it for the first time, ended up playing 3 games and had a great time!

We also have come to realise that we're really bad at reading rules and following them. The rule book really confused us, most of the instructions and components seemed a bit unnecessary... we just wanted to play and couldn't be bothered to try to make sense of it, so we just watched the quick introduction of the Starlit citadels review and then jumped right in to a simplified easy version of the game without the clearvoyancy stuff...

It was fun and played very smoothly. while i can imagine the clearvoyancy stuff adds a bit of depth and more "gameness" to what others might feel is too much of "just an activity", i have no desire to play the game any differently. It
 
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Jared Parks
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Can't you just house rule that you cannot choose an option that you already chose previously, as well as not being allowed to "scheme" with the group to purposely choose wrong?
 
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Steven Townshend
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RpTheHotrod wrote:
Can't you just house rule that you cannot choose an option that you already chose previously, as well as not being allowed to "scheme" with the group to purposely choose wrong?


On page 9 of the rulebook, the rules-as-written state:

"Each psychic must place his intuition token on the psychic card to which he believes the ghost is guiding him before the sand timer runs out."

Thus a psychic re-choosing an option he or she chose previously--so that his or her teammates could gain more clairvoyance--is against the rules since you cannot believe that the ghost is guiding you to an option the ghost already revealed as incorrect.

In this way a psychic couldn't re-choose an incorrect option, if that was your question. I mean he could if he wanted to pretend the rules didn't say what they say.
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James
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Drammattex wrote:
RpTheHotrod wrote:
Can't you just house rule that you cannot choose an option that you already chose previously, as well as not being allowed to "scheme" with the group to purposely choose wrong?


On page 9 of the rulebook, the rules-as-written state:

"Each psychic must place his intuition token on the psychic card to which he believes the ghost is guiding him before the sand timer runs out."

Thus a psychic re-choosing an option he or she chose previously--so that his or her teammates could gain more clairvoyance--is against the rules since you cannot believe that the ghost is guiding you to an option the ghost already revealed as incorrect.

In this way a psychic couldn't re-choose an incorrect option, if that was your question. I mean he could if he wanted to pretend the rules didn't say what they say.


Yeah, I don't know that I would base my rules lawyering around the word "believes" - that's just a bit too abstract.
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Steven Townshend
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Fortunately there is the rest of the sentence and rule book for context.
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