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Subject: Dungeon Sagas Kickstarters Explicitly Undelivered Stretch Goals rss

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Brad P
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I went through all 94 updates to find out exactly what was promised. Mantic did a solid job on the miniatures but left out a lot of other stuff. Some of this they have talked about in update 92 but a lot is just vanished into smoke and mystery.

The details of how I determined this are in this blog post.

http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/2015/11/dungeon-sagas-missin...

Please read it before contesting any of these things.

Thanks


Explicitly Missing Items: (Updated for 95)


Ally Mcsween Character Mat Not in Dungeon Master Pledge (Digital Copy Update 95)

Ibahrim Character Mat Not in Dungeon Master Pledge (Digital Copy Update 95)

Missing Dungeon Journal Mission for Logan

Hero AI Cards and Rules in Adventurer's Companion (Informed of Removal)

Hordin and Gnasher Missing Mission in Dungeon Journal

The Path of the Righteous Mission missing from Dungeon Journal

Infernal Crypts Expansion Promised 8 Scenarios only 6 Produced

2 Missing Dungeon Journal Mission vs Green Skins

2 Missing Dungeon Journal Mission vs Hordes of the Abyss

Witch and Dwarf Engineer Classes Missing from Adventurers Companion

Rise of the Shadow King Digitial Adventure Book Missing (Delayed Update 95)

Unholy Crusade 4 Mission Pack Missing from Dungeon Journal (Very Late Move to Digital)

Green Tide 4 Mission Pack Missing from Dungeon Journal (Very Late Move to Digital)

Black Fortress Campaign (? Missions 4+ Assumed) Missing from Dungeon Journal (Very Late Move to Digital)

Winter's Knight Digital Adventure Book Missing (Delayed Update 95)

Dungeon Saga Digital Novel Missing


All told that is 19 of the Dungeon Journal Missions that actually were most of those that could be played straight out of the Dungeon Master Pledge to make the extra random orcs and abyss guys useful to people just getting that pledge are missing. This compares to only to 10 for the base game, 7 Dungeon Journal and 6 Return of Valandor Missions (original supposed to be part of Dungeon Journal) provided. So not far from Half the promised missions.

The Dwarf Kings Hold missions are different since they are not really playable from the base pledge since you need considerably more undead, dwarves, or elves to play them which required additional purchases or existing miniatures. Add in the 2 missing Infernal Crypt missions and that is 21 missing. Since this is mostly text/graphic content, a digital update can fill it in bit sort of sad that the Dungeon Journal that was a major part of the stretch goals got cut down so badly. For the character Mats the proper thing to do would be to provide the digital versions of all the ones provided in all the expansions to the players.(Done Update 95) They have to print them but is it better than trying to hand write them or photocopy them out of the adventurers companion.

Note: I have provide Chris at Mantic a link to the post. I have also been editing my posts in this thread to clarify my thoughts to not force it to drag out with tons of replies.

I will also note that my blog in the link above is entirely non-commerical. I do not run ads, I do not accept funds or goods for promotion, and I do not get stuff for free outside the occasional random contest win.
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Leon Scheuber
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Thank you for putting that together. Wow, this is really bad. I don't understand why they had to rush everything to the backers. Nobody would be pissed, if they only receive the base game now and the polished expansions in a 2. shipment... it is beyond me.
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Gauthier D.
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I guess they absolutely wanted to be have the base set on retail for Christmas, and having to make separate shipments to the backers would have increased shipping charges too much.
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Brad P
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kyryahn wrote:
I guess they absolutely wanted to be have the base set on retail for Christmas, and having to make separate shipments to the backers would have increased shipping charges too much.

I think we have a winner.

It is also possible that the project just ran out of money for professional game development and they tried to use amateurs from play testers to write this stuff but they just could not get it right so it vanished.
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Leon Scheuber
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Exo Desta wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
kyryahn wrote:
I guess they absolutely wanted to be have the base set on retail for Christmas, and having to make separate shipments to the backers would have increased shipping charges too much.

I think we have a winner.
And a wholllle bunch of losers.

For the cost of destroying their credibility.
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seb seb2
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i totally disagree with some things on the blog,like this:

"Resin Counter Upgrade changed from Skulls to lame hearts and really poor looking piles of bones"

the Resin Counter are fine,and the piles of bones look good.
Of coure it's not skull shaped,because there'no skulls on the hero sheet,but diamond.That's obvious.
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Brad P
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Belsamoreth wrote:
i totally disagree with some things on the blog,like this:

"Resin Counter Upgrade changed from Skulls to lame hearts and really poor looking piles of bones"

the Resin Counter are fine,and the piles of bones look good.
Of coure it's not skull shaped,because there'no skulls on the hero sheet,but diamond.That's obvious.

I think a lot of people would agree with me and I mainly note in the body later that they should have at least informed us of the change. Anyway that is really a side issue anyway I was just including it since I did not like them and I was taking all that time to get this together having just got those yesterday and not enough time to get good pictures myself due to their color washing detail away in photos. I think the worst part of the pile of bones in the sword without the undercut which leaves this strange part going all the way down to the base with no match to anything.
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seb seb2
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but for the most parts,lot of graphics on SG are mockup and are supposed to change.
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Brad P
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Belsamoreth wrote:
but for the most parts,lot of graphics on SG are mockup and are supposed to change.

And many of their images said that this one did not. Again though it is not really the focus of the blog post and not even listed in the stuff on the top here since it is off the topic of undelivered things since I did in fact get something.

There was one more update I wanted to mention later but could not remember which one because my notes concentrated on things promised but I am pretty sure back in march they talked about having delays so they could get the best product out which I thought is a broken promise on the adventurers companion.

If people think I am being unfair to Mantic I did not even note in these the size difference between the giant undead monster we were promised and the mini gotten. In the Dungeon Master pledge image he dwarfs the undead troll (even adjusting the different start points) but I do not think that is very accurate to what was delivered.
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Sam
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eriochrome wrote:


Explicitly Missing Items:


Ally Mcsween Character Mat Not in Dungeon Master Pledge

Ibahrim Character Mat Not in Dungeon Master Pledge


Have to disagree with these. The stretch goal graphic states:
Ally McSween
Halfling Thief
Coloured Plastic
Added free to pledges of Dungeon Master

So the image states we get a plastic model in the Dungeon Master pledges.

In an update post, Mantic also posted:
"Unlocking Ally means you'll be getting a new thick card Character Mat, equipment cards and awesome special abilities as well!"

So whilst yes I can see how this could have given the impression that these extras would be included in the Dungeon Master pledge, Mantic never stated that they would, just that if the Ally Model is unlocked, they will also create additional character, equipment and ability cards. It didn't say that these would be included in Dungeon Master Pledges, but I can see how this was unintentionally misleading (probably another example of where Mantic should have had an extra proof reader, see what I mean at post XXX).

To back this up, on the image of the Dungeon Master Pledge it only showed the Ally miniature. For the Hero and Villain cards, it stated there would be 8, which there are, no more, no less.

Mantic certainly could have been clearer on their posts but they're not under delivering in this case.
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Brad P
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As I noted I sent this to Chris at Mantic. I have gotten responses from him in the past so we will see. I truly wonder how many of these things were actually just totally forgotten. Things like the Rightous Path or 2 Sets of 2 Bonus mission or the Witch and Engineer characters probably fall into that catagory.
 
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Brad P
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Crazy Jaws wrote:
eriochrome wrote:


Explicitly Missing Items:


Ally Mcsween Character Mat Not in Dungeon Master Pledge

Ibahrim Character Mat Not in Dungeon Master Pledge


Have to disagree with these. The stretch goal graphic states:
Ally McSween
Halfling Thief
Coloured Plastic
Added free to pledges of Dungeon Master

So the image states we get a plastic model in the Dungeon Master pledges.

In an update post, Mantic also posted:
"Unlocking Ally means you'll be getting a new thick card Character Mat, equipment cards and awesome special abilities as well!"

So whilst yes I can see how this could have given the impression that these extras would be included in the Dungeon Master pledge, Mantic never stated that they would, just that if the Ally Model is unlocked, they will also create additional character, equipment and ability cards. It didn't say that these would be included in Dungeon Master Pledges, but I can see how this was unintentionally misleading (probably another example of where Mantic should have had an extra proof reader, see what I mean at post XXX).

To back this up, on the image of the Dungeon Master Pledge it only showed the Ally miniature. For the Hero and Villain cards, it stated there would be 8, which there are, no more, no less.

Mantic certainly could have been clearer on their posts but they're not under delivering in this case.

I have to disagree with your logic. At the time of their unlocks there were no expansions to buy hence there was no implied other place for those mats to be. There Dungeon Master Pledge Graphic was also consistantly out of date during the drive and was never comprehensive. Unlocking optional expansions in the future does not allow you to move stuff you have already promised people to them especially without explicit notice.

I would also have it noted that I am giving Mantic the benefit of the doubt on things like rules, tokens and cards for those heroes as they are approximately in the Adventures Companion but a thick character mat is a very specific object to not deliver.
 
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seb seb2
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i don't care about the missing quests (they will come later).

but some skills seems to be missing in the AC (shield bash,marskman,deft throw)...that's a bigger problem
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Brad P
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kvezner wrote:


Maybe the best solution is to sell your DS game and go troll somewhere else. Or see if Fantasy Flight wants some other game attacked.

I am not sure how asking for the product I was sold is trolling. And do not lie to yourself, Mantic's kickstarters are presales. They have run 10 of them and 3 since the time of this one. There business model is to sell things mainly on kickstarter then a some more direct and retail but given they have very little trade presence it is mostly kickstarter.

Now as per the kickstarter terms of use the creator is responsible for delivering all promised rewards. Failure to do so requires an accounting of how the money was spent and what went wrong with the project or a actionable plan to bring those rewards to the customers. The first set in determining a good plan of fulfilling the rewards is to clearly determine what was missing. I think I have done a good job of that here.

I have yet to find anyone who has a plain english reading of any of my documentation that allows for a better interpretation of what was promised based on the images, text, and timeline of the kickstarter. I even go so far as to propose that even though a physical book was promised for most of these items that a digital one would be fine. This is similar to what Mantic discussed in the update 92 but their timeline was not existent and their list of contents was not sufficiently complete with about half the missions still unaccounted for as well as other issues.
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Brad P
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Belsamoreth wrote:
i don't care about the missing quests (they will come later).

but some skills seems to be missing in the AC (shield bash,marskman,deft throw)...that's a bigger problem

The adventures journal is a whole other deal and needs it own discussion as it is getting. I am also fine with getting the missions later heck I would have been fine with getting the AC later but Mantics clear lack of clarity about the number of missions missing and the very late mention that anything was missing (3 months after it went to printing) makes it a question as to whether we will see this stuff.

Heck they have two other kickstarters that they are just writing and testing rules for that they worked on and funded while we were waiting for our stuff.

I also think this is beyond the level of a few missing quests. If you are missing what seems like 1/3rd of a book you should probably inform backers a bit earlier.
 
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Kelvin Green
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eriochrome wrote:
Hordin and Gnasher Missing Mission in Dungeon Journal

The Hording and Gnasher adventure is on pages 26 to 29 of The Dungeon Journal, or are you referring to a different adventure?
 
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Silver Bowen
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Intourette wrote:
Exo Desta wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
kyryahn wrote:
I guess they absolutely wanted to be have the base set on retail for Christmas, and having to make separate shipments to the backers would have increased shipping charges too much.

I think we have a winner.
And a wholllle bunch of losers.

For the cost of destroying their credibility.

I'll never pledge for another Mantic project. It's extremely unlikely I'll ever even buy another game w/ their brand on it, unless it's secondhand at a major discount. Seeing the way this project was slapped together reflects very poorly on their company culture.
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Brad P
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kelvingreen wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
Hordin and Gnasher Missing Mission in Dungeon Journal

The Hording and Gnasher adventure is on pages 26 to 29 of The Dungeon Journal, or are you referring to a different adventure?

Please read the Blog post for specific details but Hordin and Gnasher specifically uses the plural "missions" to describe what was being placed in the Dungeon Journal. Hence providing 1 mission leaves a deficit of at least 1 mission at the minimum.

I would also note that I am being generous to Mantic in terms of missions for the Warlord expansion which unlocked during the drive I think 3 "bonus" missions but since they never specificied a number in the initial goal I assume it is only the 3 to allow the "bonus" missions to fill it to the six provided. Similarly the "bonus" missions in the base game bring it up to 10 including the 2 training missions which is sort of light for something that is retail at 80 dollars or so.
 
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Rick Vinyard
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kvezner wrote:
??? The bone pile counters look great. The injury counters are 3D versions of the hearts on the character cards. You place the counters over the hearts and you need the graphic of all red hearts to know when there's an injury. The injury counters are what they should be.
I agree. I saw the comments about the injury counters and bone piles, but when mine arrived last night and I saw them for myself, and I think the comments were over the top.

The bone piles look good and the injury counters match the artwork on the cards.

My wife really liked them as well.
 
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Kelvin Green
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eriochrome wrote:
kelvingreen wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
Hordin and Gnasher Missing Mission in Dungeon Journal

The Hording and Gnasher adventure is on pages 26 to 29 of The Dungeon Journal, or are you referring to a different adventure?

Please read the Blog post for specific details but Hordin and Gnasher specifically uses the plural "missions" to describe what was being placed in the Dungeon Journal. Hence providing 1 mission leaves a deficit of at least 1 mission at the minimum.

I see what you mean. It could have been a misprint, I suppose.
 
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Brad P
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rvinyard wrote:
kvezner wrote:
??? The bone pile counters look great. The injury counters are 3D versions of the hearts on the character cards. You place the counters over the hearts and you need the graphic of all red hearts to know when there's an injury. The injury counters are what they should be.
I agree. I saw the comments about the injury counters and bone piles, but when mine arrived last night and I saw them for myself, and I think the comments were over the top.

The bone piles look good and the injury counters match the artwork on the cards.

My wife really liked them as well.

I am not sure why people are fixated on that they like the counters. That is such a tiny part of the discussion that I did not even post that to this forum. I will adjust the post to make it more clear that this issue there is more the total redesign without any notice or preview images.

My displeasure there is probably also amplified by those being the items I added to get over the 200 dollar line to get what I thought was a nice thick Compendium and not an error ridden Adventurers Journal.
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kelvingreen wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
kelvingreen wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
Hordin and Gnasher Missing Mission in Dungeon Journal

The Hording and Gnasher adventure is on pages 26 to 29 of The Dungeon Journal, or are you referring to a different adventure?

Please read the Blog post for specific details but Hordin and Gnasher specifically uses the plural "missions" to describe what was being placed in the Dungeon Journal. Hence providing 1 mission leaves a deficit of at least 1 mission at the minimum.

I see what you mean. It could have been a misprint, I suppose.

And if it was a misprint they could have corrected it during the pledge drive without an issue. Or say something like " to make more room for adventures with all these great orcs and abssyals we are going to convert one of the bonus mission for Holdin into two missions for one against each of those forces. If we unlock X stretch goal with upgrade two individual adventures to 2 each for 4 total."

Ofcourse they failed to deliver those pairs either so maybe not the best possible example. But other than Valandor stuff they did not deliver most of the Dungeon Journal Missions. I do not think that fact is a coincidence either that one of the last things promised that is going to also show up in retail was finished when many things promised that are part of a kickstarter exclusive item did not get finished.
 
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Belsamoreth wrote:

"Resin Counter Upgrade changed from Skulls to lame hearts and really poor looking piles of bones"
Ehm, not that it would mean anything to you, but this was the only one thing I 'backed', not even a game, based solely on advertised appearance..
Just wanted some skulls damage tokens and square "killed" elements, stuff to pimp some other games.. none of it was delivered..
Happy for you, that hearts match the char. sheet layout, sigh.
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spokosin wrote:
Belsamoreth wrote:

"Resin Counter Upgrade changed from Skulls to lame hearts and really poor looking piles of bones"
Ehm, not that it would mean anything to you, but this was the one thing I 'backed', based solely on advertised appearance..
Just wanted some skulls damage tokens and square "killed" elements, stuff to pimp some other games.. none of it was delivered..
Happy for you, that hearts match the char. sheet layout, sigh.

Given that there was 6 months between close of funding and pledge manager they might have told us about the design change yes. I might myself have gotten the ancient grudge miniatures to reach the two hundred dollar line. That would have been sort of ironic given how the Compendium issue turned out.

I am looking at one of the pile of bones right now. It is nearly a triangle in shape. If I place the sheild corner/edge close to me it looks fine as I rotate it away so I am looking down the point that has piece of knee armor away from the shield on it my eye is instantly drawn to the unnaturally smooth and widening material that is under the sword. If the sword had been place where it laid on top of the ribs and ended next to the skull it would look fine.
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Claire Bradshaw
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I saw this on their website. I chose to pay $8 for them. If I saw I was getting some lame ass off cuts from Incan Gold and a tiny pile of bones I would have said no thanks.

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