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Subject: "Opposites" as a clue rss

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Dawn and Chris
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In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
 
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Jack Francisco
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My gut tells me that it isn't in the spirit of the game.
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mfl134
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
I think it is fair as long as the words are opposites and it isn't about word positioning or something.

We have had words that rhyme and people have said Rhyme 2.

These clues feel direct. I agree it is in the grayer space, but I think it fits on rules.
 
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Dawn and Chris
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mfl134 wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
I think it is fair as long as the words are opposites and it isn't about word positioning or something.

We have had words that rhyme and people have said Rhyme 2.

These clues feel direct. I agree it is in the grayer space, but I think it fits on rules.
That's interesting that you say that. We have deemed "rhyme" illegal expressly for the reason that the word's meanings have nothing to do with the clue. Plot and Spot came up in a game and the fact that they both end in the letters "OT" is the only thing that connects them to the clue. We felt that was a no-no as it was more about the topography of the words.
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Alison Mandible
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Doesn't the rulebook explicitly forbid rhyme-related clues?

If opposites 2 is a reference to the meanings of the words, it seems okay to me-- much like that question of whether platypus 2 was a valid clue for PART and DUCK. It does feel a little strange to give a clue that so pointedly applies only to the target words as a whole rather than to each word individually... but I don't see anything in the game that even hints at banning it.
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Jack Francisco
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I was tempted, however, to use "nationality-2" for TIE and POLISH. Yes, I am aware that it's cheating. devil
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
I think it is fair as long as the words are opposites and it isn't about word positioning or something.

We have had words that rhyme and people have said Rhyme 2.

These clues feel direct. I agree it is in the grayer space, but I think it fits on rules.
That's interesting that you say that. We have deemed "rhyme" illegal expressly for the reason that the word's meanings have nothing to do with the clue. Plot and Spot came up in a game and the fact that they both end in the letters "OT" is the only thing that connects them to the clue. We felt that was a no-no as it was more about the topography of the words.
Agreed. The rules explicitly say, under "firm rules": Your clue must be about the meaning of the words.
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mfl134
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opticode wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
I think it is fair as long as the words are opposites and it isn't about word positioning or something.

We have had words that rhyme and people have said Rhyme 2.

These clues feel direct. I agree it is in the grayer space, but I think it fits on rules.
That's interesting that you say that. We have deemed "rhyme" illegal expressly for the reason that the word's meanings have nothing to do with the clue. Plot and Spot came up in a game and the fact that they both end in the letters "OT" is the only thing that connects them to the clue. We felt that was a no-no as it was more about the topography of the words.
Agreed. The rules explicitly say, under "firm rules": Your clue must be about the meaning of the words.
agreed. I'd be happy is that ruling.


but I would agree that saying opposites or synonyms would be acceptable as they do relate to meaning.
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By no authority vested in me I would say "Fair". As stated in other responses, the litmus test for me is that it relates to the meanings of the words.
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
I would consider this against the rules, since they don't use the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.

mfl134 wrote:

I think it is fair as long as the words are opposites and it isn't about word positioning or something.

We have had words that rhyme and people have said Rhyme 2.

These clues feel direct. I agree it is in the grayer space, but I think it fits on rules.
The rules expressly forbid rhymes. Again, it's not using the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.
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Dawn and Chris
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ayejae wrote:

I would consider this against the rules, since they don't use the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.
That is an interesting way to express the counter point. I think that is why I have had doubts even though I was unable to express it as eloquently as you did.

The fact that the word's meanings are still at the heart of the "interaction" between the words is really the issue.
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mfl134
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ayejae wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
I would consider this against the rules, since they don't use the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.

mfl134 wrote:

I think it is fair as long as the words are opposites and it isn't about word positioning or something.

We have had words that rhyme and people have said Rhyme 2.

These clues feel direct. I agree it is in the grayer space, but I think it fits on rules.
The rules expressly forbid rhymes. Again, it's not using the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.
I'm not suggesting saying Bear 1 to get somebody to say Care. I was saying Rhyme 2 to get Bear and Care.


But i agree it is best to play without it and not allowed by the rules. We had somebody do it.


The exact thing that happened was 2 words on the board were homophones.


Read and Reed, or something like that.

the clue was Homophone 2.

Technically, this is not about the meaning, but the word is indeed a homophone. Probably shouldn't be allowed.
 
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
ayejae wrote:

I would consider this against the rules, since they don't use the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.
That is an interesting way to express the counter point. I think that is why I have had doubts even though I was unable to express it as eloquently as you did.

The fact that the word's meanings are still at the heart of the "interaction" between the words is really the issue.
My argument would be that "meaning" is inherent in a word, and you should be able to guess that word regardless of "clue:1" or "clue:2". The fact that you MUST use "clue:2" shows that you're no longer using the "meaning", because the clue relies on having/knowing both words. If the clue was "opposite:1," there's no way anyone would guess ant or mountain.

A normal legal clue would work for both words individually. For example, you can give "small:2" for "ant" and "pebble". You could say "small:1" and teammates can still get either one of them (suboptimal play, of course).
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Dawn and Chris
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A J,

What is your take on the...
"Platypus 2" = Part & Duck
"Flasher 2" = Drop & Pants...

question?

Seems like your argument would oppose it. Curious to know if you see a difference.
 
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M. B. Downey
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mfl134 wrote:
I'm not suggesting saying Bear 1 to get somebody to say Care.
What if they are big fans of the Care Bears?
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David Tolin
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ayejae wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
ayejae wrote:

I would consider this against the rules, since they don't use the meaning of the words, but rather their interaction with each other.
That is an interesting way to express the counter point. I think that is why I have had doubts even though I was unable to express it as eloquently as you did.

The fact that the word's meanings are still at the heart of the "interaction" between the words is really the issue.
My argument would be that "meaning" is inherent in a word, and you should be able to guess that word regardless of "clue:1" or "clue:2". The fact that you MUST use "clue:2" shows that you're no longer using the "meaning", because the clue relies on having/knowing both words. If the clue was "opposite:1," there's no way anyone would guess ant or mountain.

A normal legal clue would work for both words individually. For example, you can give "small:2" for "ant" and "pebble". You could say "small:1" and teammates can still get either one of them (suboptimal play, of course).
There is no rule that precludes clues related only to the meaning of words in combination, though. The only limitation is that the clue be related to the meaning of the word. "Opposites," in context, is related to the meanings of "Ant" and "Mountain." There is no rule against relying on that context.
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Since there is so much gray area with these types of clues, I say it's up to the other spymaster to rule if it is allowed or not. Hopefully you asked the other spymaster before blurting it out.
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
A J,

What is your take on the...
"Platypus 2" = Part & Duck
"Flasher 2" = Drop & Pants...

question?

Seems like your argument would oppose it. Curious to know if you see a difference.
Yeah I've thought about that, too. Firstly, I think those are very creative. Secondly, I would rule both of those examples as legal. If you changed any of those clue numbers to 1 instead of 2, you could still conceivably come up with one of the answers. "Platypus:1" could potentially refer to "Duck" because it is part duck, or "Part" because it is sort of half of something.

All that being said, I think you should play however is most fun for you and your group. When in doubt, ask the other spymaster first.
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downeymb wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
I'm not suggesting saying Bear 1 to get somebody to say Care.
What if they are big fans of the Care Bears?
yeah it was a shitty example.
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
A J,

What is your take on the...
"Platypus 2" = Part & Duck
"Flasher 2" = Drop & Pants...

question?

Seems like your argument would oppose it. Curious to know if you see a difference.
We had someone connect Square and Pants with "Spongebob 2". To me, totally legal and awesome.
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A J
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aliallison wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
A J,

What is your take on the...
"Platypus 2" = Part & Duck
"Flasher 2" = Drop & Pants...

question?

Seems like your argument would oppose it. Curious to know if you see a difference.
We had someone connect Square and Pants with "Spongebob 2". To me, totally legal and awesome.
Pretty good. I'd allow it, too!
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ayejae wrote:
aliallison wrote:
dawnandchris11 wrote:
A J,

What is your take on the...
"Platypus 2" = Part & Duck
"Flasher 2" = Drop & Pants...

question?

Seems like your argument would oppose it. Curious to know if you see a difference.
We had someone connect Square and Pants with "Spongebob 2". To me, totally legal and awesome.
Pretty good. I'd allow it, too!
I see no conceivable justification for disallowing such excellent clues. The cluegiver is brilliant, and should be credited with clever work.
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dawnandchris11 wrote:
In a recent play the spy-master gave the clue "opposites 2." He was targeting the words ANT and MOUNTAIN (the strength of that clue is a different discussion). Almost immediately questions about the legality of the clue began to arise.

It seems that his clue may not be in the spirit of the rules while at the same time the clue relies heavily on the meaning of the words. I find myself switching between thinking it is valid and invalid. As I type I am leaning toward it being a legal clue.

Imagine one team having the words Mountain, Valley, Foot & Head (not sure if those are even cards in the game) and giving the clue "Opposites 4." Certainly this would be a lucky configuration, but also a powerful clue.

Fair? Unfair?
We would not allow this. We disallowed a similar clue recently which was 'Synonyms: 4' - same principle. The clue is not really about the meanings of the words relating to the clue, but relating to each other. Not within the spirit of the game, IMHO.
 
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Josh Rosenblum
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If the words in play were well known opposites, like Big and Small or Open and Shut, that is different in my mind then two vaguely related clues like the example of Ant and Mountain. Personally, I don't think I'd allow that clue. Maybe something like 'Sizes' as the clue would be OK. Or if the words were Mountain and Valley.
 
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Mark J
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It is hard to understand what exactly is an illegal clue.

Your side has the clue "beach" and "ball" and you give the clue "Round 2." The shape of an object certainly is about the clue in the case for "ball". But it isn't for beach. But you're hoping they get what you're trying to do and connect the two.

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