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Fury of Dracula (Third/Fourth Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Still struggling with combat timing. rss

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rob taylor
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I try explaining what I think I know,then hope someone can help.

It's daytime, Dr John seward takes a move action to Paris.
He has moved to draculas location.

Dracula ambushes, which is immediately resolved.
Then van helsing and mine Harker take their day action.

It's now dusk and combat ensues between dracula and Dr seward.

Nothing much happens during combat and they are still in Paris.

Now,it's night time.

My questions are from this time period.

1.Dr seward cannot move because it's night time.
He chooses not to search,healing 2 damage instead.
The other players take their night actions.

What happens next? Since dracula and Dr seward are still in the same location?
Can dracula ambush again?
Is there combat?
Does dracula simply move location on his turn, or possibly play hide etc?

This is what I can't get my head around.


 
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H-B-G
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keighleyrob wrote:
I try explaining what I think I know,then hope someone can help.

It's daytime, Dr John seward takes a move action to Paris.
He has moved to draculas location.

Dracula ambushes, which is immediately resolved.
Then van helsing and mine Harker take their day action.

It's now dusk and combat ensues between dracula and Dr seward.

Nothing much happens during combat and they are still in Paris.

Now,it's night time.

My questions are from this time period.

1.Dr seward cannot move because it's night time.
He chooses not to search,healing 2 damage instead.
The other players take their night actions.

What happens next? Since dracula and Dr seward are still in the same location?
Can dracula ambush again?
No

Quote:
Is there combat?
Possibly, but not yet, it is Dracula's turn first

Quote:
Does dracula simply move location on his turn, or possibly play hide etc?
Dracula can move or play Hide, Feed or Dark Call to stay in the location.

If he stays there will then be combat at Dawn followed by Hunter day turns, if he moves, you move straight to hunter turns.

The above assumes no cards played at Dawn, which may change things slightly.
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rob taylor
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Finally I think.I understand it all.
Cheers dave.
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Joel Stair
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DaveD and I have played 3ed and it does help. once i started doing combat a few times messing up and then doing it right the next time i started get combat down.
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Brian Morris
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The combat is the one main area that changed the most from 2nd to 3rd edition so that was an area I had to wrap my mind around as well. The other for me was dusk and dawn. Took me a bit to grok (to use a term from Robert Heinlein) the reason for them in the turn order.
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Brian P
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I think one of the things confusing people is that they think the Dawn/Dusk combat phases happen after every Hunter phase, forgetting that Dracula has his night phase before the Dawn.

So without combat phases it would be:
Day - Hunter Actions
Night - Hunter Actions
Night - Dracula Actions

2nd Day...

The Dawn and Dusk combat phases come in where they normally would during the real-world cycle:

Dawn - Check for previous phase's combat triggers (previous night)
Day - Hunter Actions
Dusk - Check for previous phase
Night - Hunter Actions
Night - Dracula Actions
Dawn - Check for previous phase's combat triggers. Start of the next day cycle


This mimics the natural "dawn, day, dusk, night, dawn of the next day" cycle of the real world.

Correct me if I've misunderstood the rules here, I haven't had a chance to play the game itself yet, just read the rules.
 
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Randal Divinski
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keighleyrob wrote:
{Seward moves to Paris, Dracula's location.}
Dracula ambushes, which is immediately resolved.

It's now dusk and combat ensues between Dracula and Seward.
{Combat ends after 6 rounds, both still standing}

Now, it's night time.

My questions are from this time period.

1.Dr seward cannot move because it's night time.
He chooses not to search, healing 2 damage instead.

What happens next? Since dracula and Dr seward are still in the same location? Can dracula ambush again? Is there combat?
Does dracula simply move location on his turn, or possibly play hide etc?
I will try to answer the "ambush" part of your question. Here's what the rules say about ambushing.
LTP, p 12 wrote:
After a hunter ends his movement on a hideout that has one or more encounter cards in it, Dracula can choose to ambush that hunter. To ambush, Dracula chooses an encounter card in that hideout, then reveals and resolves the card’s effect, ignoring the matured effect. After he resolves that card, it is discarded. If Dracula chooses not to ambush, the encounter card remains as part of that hideout, and Dracula may ambush in the future when a hunter ends his movement on that location.
So an ambush is Dracula resolving an encounter card at the hunter's location. In your example, the first ambush takes place right after Seward moves to Paris. The location is revealed, Dracula then chooses to resolve an encounter card, which is then discarded (unless it was a vampire and survived a combat or a few other special cards). This happens immediately, during day, before other Hunters finish their day turns.

Then other hunters take actions. One of them might move onto another part of Dracula's trail, in which case he might ambush them there with an encounter card on THAT location. In any event, soon the hunter day turn is over.

Now it is DUSK, and in your example, Dracula and Seward fight. After 6 rounds, both are still standing, and combat ends.

In your example, you say Dracula ambushes Seward again. For this to be possible, either the day-used encounter must have persisted (e.g. vampire that survived combat) or there must have been more than one encounter card on the space. Otherwise there is no means for Dracula to ambush.

Suppose there is a second encounter card available. Can Seward be ambushed now? It depends on what "Dracula may ambush in the future when a hunter ends his movement on that location" is supposed to mean. Taken literally, Seward can't be ambushed at night because he is not ending his MOVEMENT now.

But perhaps they meant to say "ends his TURN" -- if so, then Seward can be ambushed again at the moment he ends his night turn. (I am leaning towards this until there is an official ruling.)

In any event, Seward is done, then maybe ambushed. Then other hunters finish night turns. Then Dracula takes his action. If it is an action that keeps him in Paris, he and Seward enter combat at Dawn.

Then, the next day turn starts. If both survived, and Seward stays in Paris (resupplying), then after all hunter day moves, there is Dracula/Seward III at Dusk.



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Zach Mckinney
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I was wondering about Ambush because I moved a hunter into a location with bats encounter, which triggered the rats encounter in the new location which hit the hunter for 2, then he was delayed in the same location and unable to get rid of rats. I was wondering during the next day and night phases if I could ambush him again and again if so that is stupid powerful, that would be 6 damage by itself.
 
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mcloud357 wrote:
I was wondering about Ambush because I moved a hunter into a location with bats encounter, which triggered the rats encounter in the new location which hit the hunter for 2, then he was delayed in the same location and unable to get rid of rats. I was wondering during the next day and night phases if I could ambush him again and again if so that is stupid powerful, that would be 6 damage by itself.
As noted in my reply further up, as I read the rules you can only ambush after the initial move, so repeated ambushes would not be possible on the same hunter. Randiv, in his reply states he believes the opposite. I have asked FFG for clarification.
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Randal Divinski
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DaveD wrote:
mcloud357 wrote:
I was wondering about Ambush because I moved a hunter into a location with bats encounter, which triggered the rats encounter in the new location which hit the hunter for 2, then he was delayed in the same location and unable to get rid of rats. I was wondering during the next day and night phases if I could ambush him again and again if so that is stupid powerful, that would be 6 damage by itself.
As noted in my reply further up, as I read the rules you can only ambush after the initial move, so repeated ambushes would not be possible on the same hunter. Randiv, in his reply states he believes the opposite. I have asked FFG for clarification.
On further consideration, I believe I was wrong to stray from the literal interpretation -- that ambush happens at the end of a player move (rather than action phase [day/night part of turn]). I changed my mind because many encounters have a stronger effect at night. If Dracula has the option to automatically postpone the ambush from the Hunter day phase to the Hunter night phase, why wouldn't he? That would be the practical effect of my interpretation.

What bothers me though is this. Seward moves at Paris, with a hideout. Dracula chooses not to ambush. Seward stays in Paris the next day, doing a supply action, but Dracula can't ambush him. However, that same day, Mina travels to Paris. Dracula CAN ambush her, but withholds a second encounter on that location.

The next day, Steward stays there again, but Mina moves away. The day after, Steward still stays, and Mina moves back to Paris. Steward cannot be ambushed but Mina can. Seems a little odd.

UPDATE: The official ruling (see below) is that ambush is only after a move action, so I am right in this post and wrong in my previous post.

 
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I'm not 100%, but the rules seem to imply you ambush only after a "move" action (or after a "game effect" moves a hunter to a hideout/lair). Guess we'll find out when FFG respond.

Also...
- You can ambush with already-revealed encounters (eg. surviving vampires from previous combats), so you don't have to be able to "reveal" them in order to ambush.
- You can ambush a hunter with multiple cards at once (Dracula player chooses order).

Rules Reference, pg 3 wrote:
Ambush
After a hunter is moved to a hideout or lair, Dracula reveals the
location card in that hideout or lair. Then, Dracula can then choose an
encounter card in that hideout or lair to ambush with. He reveals the
card and resolves the text on that encounter card, ignoring any mature
effect.
† Dracula may ambush with an encounter card that is already revealed.
† If a game effect moves a hunter to a location that is a hideout or lair, Dracula can ambush that hunter.
† After resolving the encounter card’s effect, Dracula must discard that card unless it specifies otherwise.
† If there are two or more encounter cards in a hideout or lair, Dracula may ambush the same hunter multiple times (once for each card) in the order of his choice.
 
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DaveD wrote:
mcloud357 wrote:
I was wondering about Ambush because I moved a hunter into a location with bats encounter, which triggered the rats encounter in the new location which hit the hunter for 2, then he was delayed in the same location and unable to get rid of rats. I was wondering during the next day and night phases if I could ambush him again and again if so that is stupid powerful, that would be 6 damage by itself.
As noted in my reply further up, as I read the rules you can only ambush after the initial move, so repeated ambushes would not be possible on the same hunter. Randiv, in his reply states he believes the opposite. I have asked FFG for clarification.
I just heard back from Frank Brooks at FFG saying this

Quote:
Yes, the ambush must happen “immediately” after a hunter finishes a movement into a hideout. If a hunter stays in a city and resolves other actions such as supply or rest, Dracula cannot ambush the hunter—he can only ambush a hunter immediately after movement.
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So maybe this is me being a bit silly, but ... if combat happens at Dawn and Dusk ... how is it ever Night with respect to Dracula's combat card effects? I've been playing with dawn combat counting as Day and Dusk combat counting as Night because it makes sense but I find it slightly annoying that the rules make it seem like there's no such thing as combat at Night.

In any case, my question: do I have it backwards? Since the language in the rules is that Dusk occurs before night and Dawn occurs before day ... is Dusk combat day and Dawn combat Night? The language would make more sense if "before" precludes the possibility of being part of that phase even though intuitively it makes more sense that dusk is dark while dawn is light. I suppose another way of putting this is: does dusk/dawn combat happen before you move the marker as per the dusk/dawn phase or after or as?
 
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Paul Catley
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No, you have it the right way round: dusk is night, dawn is day. Use Dracula's night abilities in dusk combats.

It's made clear on the hunters' character sheets, though not on Dracula's. Also in the Combat section of the Rules Reference, page 4:

"If combat is at dusk or night, Dracula resolves the “at night” effects of his combat cards."
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Mark L
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Sulinde wrote:
Since the language in the rules is that Dusk occurs before night and Dawn occurs before day ... is Dusk combat day and Dawn combat Night? The language would make more sense if "before" precludes the possibility of being part of that phase even though intuitively it makes more sense that dusk is dark while dawn is light. I suppose another way of putting this is: does dusk/dawn combat happen before you move the marker as per the dusk/dawn phase or after or as?
The Rules Reference does actually answer this, it's just a bit hard to find.

In the section on Combat it says:

Quote:
If combat is at dusk or night, Dracula resolves the “at night”
effects of his combat cards.
(Same as on the hunter sheets. By implication, if it is not dusk or night, it is daytime.)


And in the section on Dawn and Dusk it says:

Quote:
If one or more hunters are in the same location as Dracula
during dawn or dusk, a combat occurs after the time marker is
advanced.
(Emphasis mine.)
 
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